Could you perhaps name who a couple of those figures were? I know you spend some, you zero in and focus on a couple of these medieval Bible commentators and why they're important, I think, for understanding Luther.

Yeah, I'm happy to do that.

I'll start with Nicholas of Loura, who was... very important for Luther in a general sense because Nicholas of Luria in the beginning of the 14th century, so 200 years before Luther, he was one of those scholars in the Middle Ages who very much focused on the literal sense of the Bible as opposed to allegorical reading of the Bible.

And of course Luther was someone following up in this line saying we focus on the literal sense of the Bible and the sense of the Bible that talks to us pro nobis.

And so he was somehow following up this Nicholas of Luray, in whom we find a scholar of the 14th century who engaged with Jewish interpretation of the Bible.

So he very often quotes rabbis and says, This rabbi says this or that, and then he engages with them.

And of course, there also the line to Luther comes.

That's probably too broad, but however much you want to say on that, we can kind of spend the rest of our time with

I'm curious about the human beings who bring those images to those craftsmen and those farmers.

So usually a painter would live in an urban context, and if this painter lived in Italy, and you know the greatest painters of this time lived in Italy, they had at least a basic education.

Uh, and they also had people explaining them and telling them what they wanted them to depict.

That was different, uh, in, from case to case.

In the 15th century, we even have some contracts where a, a city council very expressly would tell the painter what they had to paint on, on, on the altarpiece.

So it's different from painter to painter.

If it comes, uh, to, to Michelangelo, we know he, he, he was very well educated in philosophy.

Mm-hmm.