And from where you were at NSA, what failure mode is kind of, like, more likely if this gets built very quickly without much forethought?

[chuckles] Well, uh, or the alternative is what, what will be built, and not this one, if there is a national security failure.

And, and for the national security community, there are many considerations.

You know, number one is the, you know, the diffusion of capability, very powerful capabilities that China, Russia, you know, Iran, North Korea, criminals, cartels, you know, all the bad, uh, guys, you know, can, can use in order to do harm against the United State.

If they are using, chaining, you know, different frontier models and be able to scale, uh, cyber operations to augment, to enhance the bio, uh, defensive weapons program, or, uh, to scale a fraud and scam operations to, you know, harm Americans, those will likely be the argument, uh, for the national security community to have a, a huge say and, and, uh, be able to, um, make decisions on that.

And so you have to make sure whatever we build, that the national security components need to be in, you know, the beginning.

Uh, not solving that would just getting you a, a organization institution that has the independence and legitimacy, and the first national security crisis will absolutely destroy, you know, that, that setup.

So how should a FINRA style model or really kind of any governance model handle the open weights problem then? And I'm gonna start with you.

What should it look like?

Yeah, thank you, Justin.

Really, the background is that Demis Hassabis, who's the CEO of Google DeepMind, proposed a self regulatory organization to provide a level of stability and predictability in the ecosystem.

it is very hard for the frontier AI companies and the hyperscalers and the tech companies to guess what models could be released, which model could suddenly be reported to be so dangerous that they cannot deploy.

And so I think that is quite disturbing to the U.S. market, just the whole ecosystem who are developing technologies in order to do useful things.

My work here is with Elham Tabassi from Brookings.

She was a former NIST chief AI advisor, along with my colleague Kat Duffy at the council who's leading the lead AI effort, three of us are really, we do really care that whatever is proposed, that we want this to be a long-term success and has the support of not only just the industry, the governments, but also the people who are benefiting or will be impacted by it, along with our allies.

I don't know, Vin, how do you sort of think about that right now? What the industry wants, the dynamics of the industry, the, I don't know, financial situation that the industry's in? And Graham, I know, you know, you're watching that as well from a kind of question around, is this a bubble? Is it not? You know, are these investments going to play out? And clearly there's a lot of commercial issues considerations that are going on here as well?