By the way, just on that point, do you think our police are resourced enough, well resourced enough?

No, they're not resourced enough.

And the fact that there are 4,000 police short in New South Wales and probably 20,000 short across Australia, you know, you can't keep multiplying or getting extra police because they're just people aren't joining.

But even the resources that they have are insufficient, you know, to their daily duty.

That's all I'd be doing on the radio.

Yeah, that's right.

It's a labour-intensive job.

That's what some people don't understand.

Yeah.

A friend of ours, he's in the police, he went to a domestic argument and they went in and the bloke was doing all the talking, and one of the police-

Mm

... goes, "Oh, this is not quite right." So the other bloke said, "I'm just gonna go for a walk through the house to have a look." And on the kitchen fridge was a list of chores this woman had to do, and she signed it.

Yeah.

Um, because everyone becoming more fractured, there's, um, free speech, um, because of all the different, you know, um, internet, the crimes on the internet.

So having more laws, you know, i-i-- Are the politicians trying to keep society together by having a more, more structured laws or society with these laws, as opposed to, "Well, off you go, we won't have a law about X, Y, and Z"? Does that make sense?

Just search for I Catch Killers video in your Spotify app and start watching today.

You're looking at the cause and effect, like the, the environment that people grow, grow up in, but we've... and I, I don't think it's, it's just unique to Queensland, but you hear a lot of youth crime.

We've got it in New South Wales, a-a-across the country.

How do you fight that? Because I, I, I hear we're gonna get, uh, get tougher, you know, adult crime-

How hard would it have been for Dessey Freeman to survive all this time without being caught?

If someone is determined to do something, then they, you know, they have the capacity and, uh, physical fitness to do it.

But don't forget, sitting behind his physical ability to be able to survive in the bush, if he did it alone, he was wedded to a political ideology of being a sovereign citizen, and that drive for him within his psyche would be phenomenal because he would want to show the police, because he hated the police, he wanted to show or prove to the police he could outwit them.

And that has a bit of a downside effect for police around the country, is that because he survived so long by himself, like six or seven months, the sovereign citizen community and right-wing extremists, they'll see him as a bit of a hero because it'll be like giving the middle finger to the police and to the government to say, "Well, I managed to survive.

With that six months, you had all the police in Australia looking for me, and you couldn't do it."

What do you think, Vince, about Desi being found almost two hundred Ks from where the shootings happened? Was that a surprise to you?

Um, yes, it was a bit of a surprise.

He had a bit of a head start on the police for starters, and he knows the local area, so that would have given him a, pretty much an advantage.

mm-hmm,

yeah.

And those words like, mm-hmm, yeah, okay, I understand, are fillers.

And the fillers are just to draw out the conversation to emotionally exhaust him.

So once he's emotionally exhausted, and you can tell by the tone of their voice and how aggressive they are on the phone, Chris and I think, well, okay, we're at a good point now where we might be able to make inroads into his conversation.

So what we said to him was, okay, we're going to hang up now because this is not getting us anywhere.

In 10 minutes, we're going to ring you back and pick up this conversation.

So does this mean you stand right back and you don't use coercive language? Is that what you're saying?