That's Turco Sims, a co-conspirator in the creation of CASBA.

But we were very interested in finding an alternative to building the standard way we, we'd learned in the trades.

And we heard about a natural building colloquium that was gonna happen in Kingston, New Mexico.

And so we took off, flew out there and got totally inspired by straw bale mostly.

But I mean, there were people working on timber framing, all kinds of finishes, plaster finishes, earthen floors, septic systems, water systems, power systems, anything related to kind of living.

It, it was, and, and they were all trying different things.

And we got so inspired and then like Greg and I tend to do, we tend to kind of go off the trail, [laughs] and we always plan two or three extra days to kind of poke around, especially when you're in a beautiful place like that.

We hadn't in our lives at that point.