Are, are those things still working, those traditional things we've done, does that still work? Should that still be something to consider in plan design or, or not? What's, what's, what do you, what do you recommend today?

Yeah, ab- no, absolutely.

I, matter of fact, I think those, those levers are more important today than they ever have been.

So y- you wanna make sure that you have...

It's, it's so funny, I've talked to clients who are, they're challenged by, like we all are, with pharma's pharmacy spend, how do we manage it? What's the right decision? And oftentimes they go to very drastic measures.

Do we cover specialty, do we not? And I don't recommend not covering specialty.

But they look at very extreme changes, uh, but then when you dive into their plan design, co-pays are still very low, there's not a very good spread to c- to really incentivize members from either a carrot or a stick.

Mm-hmm