Um, tell us more about why this was the case and what ultimately sort of tilted things in a different direction i- in- which in a sense allowed the green light, allowed some of this activity to really be pursut- pur- pursued with some seriousness.

Yes, that's a good point.

The United States, uh, previous to World War II, uh, were not very keen on the idea of, uh, spying and setting up any kind of spy network.

The closest thing you could possibly say that the US had was the FBI, but they didn't, they didn't operate overseas.

So, uh, the British on the other hand, as you mentioned, they had a real enthusiasm for spying and saboteurs and, and ungentlemanly behavior, so to speak.

Uh, and the, our story, The Phantom, co- uh, actually begins with Ian Fleming being sent by Winston Churchill to the United States- To help Wild Bill Donovan set up the Office of Strategic Services, which is the OSS eventually after the war became the CIA but the, the, the, the United States had to be sort of dragged into the idea of, of you need the advantages of, of gaining intelligence from behind enemy lines, from using spies, using sabotage and when Ian Fleming came over, he explained the, what the British were doing and how successful and helpful it had been so far in the two years that they were at w- had been at war.

And Wild Bill Donovan was a Wall Street lawyer, successful Wall Street lawyer who had been a Medal of Honor winner and, and soldier in World War I.

Uh, first of all, explain to our listeners his rather remarkable and uncommon background because some of this had a lot to do with why he was, in a sense, almost uniquely, uh, equipped to be, uh, an, an effective part of this, uh, operation.

Now, tell people who Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse were.

Sitting Bull was a, uh, uh, a branch of the Sioux called the Hunkpapa, and he was a medicine man and a spiritual leader who sort of reluctantly became a military leader.

He, he himself was quite a warrior.

He had, uh, a lot of experience in fights over the decades, but he necessarily wouldn't want to see himself as the head of an army.

But yet an army formed, almost in spite of his, uh, desire to, to maintain peace.

It's not just the Lakota Sioux.

It was the Cheyenne.

How is Custer seen now in the Black Hills? I know there's a town named after him.

What kind of chaos was he stepping into? And why was he, did he kind of become like the classic Western lawman, sort of the prototype for all of that?

One of the things I love about the Wyatt Earp character is that, as you just said, he became the prototype of the Western lawman.

But what most people overlook or just don't know is that Wyatt was on the run from the law himself.

He was a convicted horse thief and he had broken out of prison.

And he ended up in Wichita, Kansas, where he reinvented himself as a deputy.

And then when the time came when Dodge City, which was known as the wickedest town in the American West, was desperately needed, a new marshal, there was a new marshal team came in.

Wyatt came in as an assistant marshal.

How far apart are those two worlds?

Did he kind of become, uh, like the classic Western lawman, sort of the prototype for all of that?

One of the things I love about the Wyatt Earp character is that, as you just said, he became the prototype of the s- of the Western lawman.

But what, what, what most people overlook or just don't know is that Wyatt was on the run from the law himself.

He was a convicted horse thief, and he had broken out of prison.

And he ended up in, in Wichita, Kansas, where he reinvented himself as a deputy.

And then when the time came when, when Dodge City, which was known as the wickedest town in the American West, was desperately needed a new, uh, marshal, there was a new marshal team came in.

Wyatt came in as an assistant marshal.

[instrumental music]

Let's take a listen.

The onset of the North Korean winter had been harsh.

They were frozen and exhausted when it snowed, and they were frozen and exhausted when it didn't snow.

This is referring to the members of Fox Company.

An unremitting wet gale blew constantly.

The Marines took to calling it the Siberian Express and glazed every rock with ice.

Their knees, knuckles, and elbows were covered with bloody scabs from continually slipping on treacherous slopes, and their feet and hands were always numb.

Here's Clavin.

Don't argue with us, all right?" [laughing] Tom, what do you think? You ready for a story? Tell 'em a story.

Sounds good to me.

Um, [clears throat] as Bob a- alluded to, our contention from the very beginning we started working on this book was Valley Forge became the most important part of the, of the Revolutionary War.

It was the turning point, and we found that out because we started to do our research and get deeply into it.

The social studies class portrait of Valley Forge is guys, you know, in the snow, starving and freezing, and then you had George Washington on a horse looking down and watching guys in the snow starving and freezing.

And that's the social studies portrait.

What we found out is that so much more was happening.

Pennsylvania German.

What kind of chaos was he stepping into? And why was he, did he kind of become like the classic Western lawman, sort of the prototype for all of that?

One of the things I love about the Wyatt Earp character is that, as you just said, he became the prototype of the Western lawman.

But what most people overlook or just don't know is that Wyatt was on the run from the law himself.

He was a convicted horse thief, and he had broken out of prison.

And he ended up in Wichita, Kansas, where he reinvented himself as a deputy.

and then when the time came when dodge city which was known as the wickedest town of the american west was desperately needed a new uh marshall there's a new marshall team came in wyatt came in as an assistant marshal and uh it was an explosive cow town of many cow towns there in the 1870s in the frontier that meant you had cowboys that would be at the end of the trail that would be liquored up and shooting a place around and and dancing and all kinds of mayhem and mischief um It was a ground zero for outlaws, Dodge City.

So this is what Wyatt Earp, I should mention his sort of sidekick, Matt Masterson, this is what they had to confront.

How far apart are those two worlds?