It's more about, "Well, how can we sell this? How can we do that?" And so I guess are the knock-on effects then for what engineers and what design do, 'cause normally product engineering and design, they're very interrelated, so if product managers do more business stuff, what do, what do the other parts of this department do?

Look, I think the designers are still fig- are, are still really focused on how the us- users interact and, and, um, having an overall design system.

You know, honestly, designers are also responsibility for making sure the product represents the company's brand, brand identity.

You know? Like in a world where Claude's generating a lot of stuff, do we want all of our software to look exactly the same? No.

Like no one does.

Like we, we pick things intentionally based on the brand and the identity of the companies, and we usually associate something with that brand, and I think design will have a really key role in making sure whatever's built sort of fits the ethos of the business, whatever that ethos is.

So I think now the big difference is instead of just like creating a prototype of it, like or, I mean, they actually can build it or fix it themselves.

Um, so, uh, I guess, um, beyond that, like, is there a secret sauce then, you think, to, to what makes these things successful?

And I say this personally because I am so fed up with people taking away features I like or hiding them.

It's a combination of really good analytics on quantitative and qualitative data.

One is watching what people actually do.

How are people traversing through software? And it could be everything from watching trends and data to actually watching real screen captures.

That's one of the exciting things about technology today.

You don't have to sit behind a double-sided mirror and watch someone use it.

You can just essentially watch what people do.

How does this impact the UI? I work from old tech systems right the way through up to systems today that are moving towards more conversational engagement rather than menus or things that i do some have worked well some haven't worked well some things have almost disappeared from how a ui works but however you design a ui it has to work for a very wide group of people not just those who want to use a conversational input correct there'll be those like me who still like to go to a command line to do stuff with certain types of software How difficult is it to meet the requirements of a large user base and where in the UI do you start to say, this is our identity as the developer and this is how we match our identity with customer need?

which is kind of

liberating.

I'm not thinking about it.

I think thinking about it, I probably thought about it too long, you know, you know, a few years ago, it's like there was this sort of like run up and path and everyone was doing it.

And, and, you know, I think we We definitely are of the sort of characteristics benchmarking of a company that certainly within the 2021 cohort could have gone public.

But look, most of the companies went public in 2021 are trading below their listing price.

So like... would that be a better outcome for us? Probably not.

like