So coming on to Kashu itself, what kind of a place was it in the mid-17th century? If, let's say, we had a time machine that allowed us to walk around the town at this time, what would we see? I

mean, that's the sort of thing actually that the book tries to explore.

It's very interested in the details of daily life and what daily life is actually like.

And so what you would see is the nitty gritty, which helps the town to reproduce itself socially and culturally.

So there was a small colonial settlement, very small, which had the fort, the church, a few large houses up by the port side, which would have stores underneath where various kinds of The goods which came in from the Atlantic trade and from trade along the rivers networks of West Africa would be stored.

So this might be textiles.

They would be all kinds of metalware.

How much then of a shadow did the transatlantic slave trade cast over other aspects of life in Kishu? I mean, were any of the enslaved people being taken across the Atlantic? Were they from Kishu? Had they been brought from the interior?

Have you noticed that a little bit with what they do? 'Cause they're a feedback team when you put them under pressure, but yeah, in the last quarter they started going forward a little bit more.

Yeah.

They, they like to feed back, and, and they really wanna prioritize chaining towards corridor, and that was a big part of what they were able to do, especially at Optus Stadium throughout the year.

They were, they didn't lose a game till the final.

So, uh, it is, it is how they play, and it's what they train and, um, but when you, when you get pressured the way the Swans delivered the first half, it, it makes it hard.

You know, you gotta...

You force contests, and I thought Swans on the opposite, they, they took contests willing at speed and, and won 'em, and won 'em convincingly ahead of the ball.

... re- relationship between the two clubs.

Is the possibility of that on your mind if you leave the Giants?

That's the biggest possibility, yeah.

That's the biggest one that weighs on me, to be honest, in terms of the Giants.

Knowing I've put every last ounce of effort into that club, trying to...

You know, asking boys to stay pretty much for the last 10 years, you know, I've been a big part of that.

Trying to build the culture that, you know, Wardy and Luke Power and Chad Corns and Phil Davis started.

And then, and being captain the last five years and trying to, you know, really develop young players.

How do you reckon their ball movement, Carlton, will stack up against that hard press?

Mm.

Um, let, let, let's say that, that Tobe got his, got his 50, his 50, uh, AFL players.

Got 'em, got 'em in a team, got 'em in a squad.

Now, now here comes the kickoff.

You've got Moses Leota, Liam Martin, Papalii and Mitch Kenny coming down as Toby catches the ball, gives it to Max Gawn, who tries to get out of the dead ball line before Moses Leota absolutely folds him-

It could've been.

Yeah.

Yeah.

with

the three origin plus the grand final.

So that's huge viewership.

They're also all night games.

And I'm from the belief that I reckon our game, our grand final should be at least twilight or if not night grand final.

And that would certainly help with media coverage.

numbers but yeah um yeah it's uh it's an amazing deal amazing for the players who you know the list size of the nrl is a lot smaller than the afl as well so the the financial incentives for players will be huge um yeah obviously i've witnessed at first stand in sydney the last five or six years the growth of the nrl is absolutely humming and i reckon vegas was a great idea and Yeah, it's obviously a great product and something that, you know, the whole city gets right around.

Yeah.

What's fuelling this, Toby?

Well, look, I think I should say what I'm sure you and most of your listeners will immediately understand anyway, which is that a pro-Palestinian slogan like Free Palestine is not in and of itself anti-Semitic.

But if you direct that slogan at somebody who is visibly Jewish just because they are Jewish... then that is an act of harassment and intimidation and that shouldn't be happening.

And this ultimately is not just about Jews.

This is about our society.

This is about the kind of London we want to live in, about the kind of Britain that we want to live in where we don't.

pick on people or target them or make assumptions about them because of their ethnicity or their religion or their appearance.

What has he achieved in that field?

So what is the system that the Portuguese are so upset about?

Well, I mean, there's lots of things to unpack here.

So, yeah, she, Crispina Perez is...

So she's of mixed heritage.

So her father was Portuguese.

Her mother was of the Bainik people, which were quite widespread at this time across different parts of what's today southern Senegal, the Casamance region and northern Guinea-Bissau.

But what's clear is that she's of this mixed heritage, but she has nothing to do with her father, really, in terms of her upbringing.

So can you take us, I mean, as you do in the book, like into sort of everyday life and walking around, like what was it like to live there? What was changing? What wasn't? What was the vibe? Yeah.