And the second thing, Tim, is that Ivan Milat wasn't necessarily doing it on his own.

Well, they're two very good points.

With Buried Secrets, we did a lot of research into this.

We We went up to the Belangelo Forest.

We went to the Genolan State Forest.

We looked at Karen Rowlands, who was murdered in 1971.

And we argued on the basis of those cases and others, Peter Letcher, for example, Diane Panagino was another one, that in all likelihood, beyond the Belangelo people, there were at least another 11 victims.

And so if there's one thing I would desperately hope comes out of this, it's changes in practice in how police deal with families when they've been traumatised.

I mean, d-do you think we have tough bail laws or is that just a fiction made up by the government?

I think it's a fiction made up by what is increasingly now a caretaker government, and I use the words wisely.

We have an election coming on the twenty-eighth of November, and what we're seeing is all talk but no walk.

So putting out this... it's almost propaganda, this sort of ad.

As you correctly point out, yesterday a woman was stabbed on a tram, uh, around South Melbourne, um, by a random offender who was allegedly on bail.

Uh, six people were charged with serious offenses on the Monash Freeway, two of them on bail.

Um, we talk about this all the time.

Do you reckon that would make a difference?

I mean, d-do you think we have tough bail laws or is that just a fiction made up by the government?

I think it's a fiction made up by what is increasingly now a caretaker government, and I use the words wisely.

We have an election coming on the twenty-eighth of November, and what we're seeing is all talk but no walk.

So putting out these...

It's almost propaganda, this sort of ad.

As you correctly point out, yesterday a woman was stabbed on a tram, uh, around South Melbourne, um, by a random offender who was allegedly on bail.

Uh, six people were charged with serious offenses on the Monash Freeway, two of them on bail.

Do you reckon that would make a difference?

In your experience, how do mental health issues influence behaviour in cases like this?

Well, they can be relevant.

You can have situations, for example, where people are drug and alcohol affected The primary drug of abuse these days on the streets in Australia and elsewhere is ice.

Crystal methyl amphetamines.

It has a powerful impact on judgment, breathable impulse control, consequential thinking.

It can also increase libido.

And people who abuse ice may become temporarily psychotic in terms of being out of touch with reality.

When you're creating a psychological profile for a suspect before police have arrested anyone, before they've had conversations, how do they start to build out that psychological profile or a theory about what might have happened?

Tim Watson-Munro is a criminal psychologist.

Yeah, it, it is, and the research says that psychopaths, as I like to call them, they're described now as antisocial personalities, but psychopaths have a very high threshold for anxiety.

So the thought of me robbing a bank, uh, you know, no chance.

I'd ...

Even if I wanted the money, I'd be going weak at the knees at the thought.

These guys, it's, it's no big deal for them.

S- And so it suggests that because of that, they can do daring things that mere mortals would only think about doing, maybe.

But I mean, I mean, arson is a serious crime, isn't it?

Well, it's a potentially deadly crime, and I read this morning, Tom, that the Zagame Aston Martin, uh, Maserati dealership was firebombed again last night, Swan Street, Richmond, and at the time two cleaners were inside.

Now, this demonstrates the potential for loss of life, this type of crime.

It's extremely serious and, uh, the penalties imposed on these two teenagers without any, um, contempt of the court seems to be inadequate.

It sends the wrong message to everyone, doesn't it?

What is it? Is it the way they're trained? Is it their background? Is it something they were taught at university? Why, why are they so reluctant to, to imprison people who commit serious offenses?

Well, I think it'd be very useful for you to get a magistrate on if you can.

But, um, I think that they are hamstrung to an extent by, uh, the laws that they are, um, required to institute.

But I mean, I mean, arson is a serious crime, isn't it?

Well, it's a potentially deadly crime, and I read this morning, Tom, that the Ugami Aston Martin, uh, Maserati dealership was firebombed again last night, Swan Street, Richmond, and at the time, two cleaners were inside.

Now, this demonstrates the potential for loss of life, this type of crime.

It's extremely serious, and, uh, the penalties imposed on these two teenagers without any, um, contempt of the court seems to be inadequate.

It sends the wrong message to everyone, doesn't it?

What is it? Is it the way they're trained? Is it their background? Is it something they were taught at university? Why, why are they so reluctant to, to imprison people who commit serious offenses?

Well, I think it'd be very useful for you to get a magistrate on if you can.

But, um, I think that they are hamstrung to an extent by, uh, the laws that they are, um, required to institute.

So is, is there, is there a case for corporal punishment here?

Oh, look, I think it's pretty antiquated.

I mean, but look, you know, I have great respect for Singapore.

It's a different culture.

It's a different penal code.

They hang people.

They use the rotan to punish people.

I, I just wonder if there's some things we could maybe learn from it.

Mm.

It occurred in a hairdressing salon, and, uh, the owner of the business was killed, and somebody who'd gone to have their hair done was killed as well.

And I was retained, and we did a, with the Vic Pol, we set up a group town debriefing through community radio.

So I was with, I think a, a, a sergeant of police, and there was me, and people were invited to ring in to talk about their feelings about this double homicide, and the phone ran hot.

There were all sorts of conspiracy theories.

People thought it was the bloke up the road.

Uh, people thought it was about bad debts, drugs, you name it.

But from your experience, w- why do these kinds of, um, sensational theories spread so quickly after rural crimes?