And

so, again, I think that, you know, while I truly believe in the bitter lesson, you know, I believe that, you know, the brute force wins out in the end.

And I've wrestled with it throughout my career.

You know, it's a pre-AI thing, really.

You know, my first taste of what you could, you know, later would be named the bitter lesson was wrestling with Google.

You know, here I was at O'Reilly.

We were a publisher.

you know, or you can subscribe or you can, you know, like

are built for narrative.

And I think that in some sense, an effective narrative is a great way to learn.

We're in a period of wonderful experimentation.

I do think that the ability to engage with the material is also really important.

You know, there's a new kind of book.

We've played with things like, you know, converse with the author, converse with the book.

We're still early in that.

more out of what's there.

It sounds like a couple of really hard years that you needed to somehow motivate yourself to get through.

I didn't think about it as having to motivate myself to get through it.

Yeah, I rem- I remember once reading Sir Joshua Slocum's book about sailing around the world solo.

You know, he's in a big storm and he's latched himself to the wheel.

It goes on for, like, several days.

He's like, "If I fall asleep, if I let go, I will die." And at first, he said, "I can make it through another hour," uh, you know, "another day," or whatever.

And then he's like, "I can make it through another hour," and then ultimately, "I can make it through another minute." And I was just like, "Okay." It just never occurred to me that there was an alternative to going forward.

So what is 2025 and beyond waiting for us with AI, the pace of change, the economy? Like, what do you think?