Which way was it for you? Were you finding your way into it or did you know what that story was?

Yeah, so I wrote my way into it musically because I don't know how else to do it.

All I can do is sit at the piano and go, what does it feel like? So the first thing I wrote was what became the sort of acrobat and escapologist theme that goes, which is that waltzy, angular, minor to minor, actually the same chords as the theme of Phantom of the Opera as it turns out.

But there's only so many chords in the world.

And then I wrote When I Grow Up.

And When I Grow Up was definitely me writing myself into a mood.

And it didn't really fit in the show, but we just went, well, it just goes at the top of the second act and we'll make it work.

Is that something you would agree with?

It's minimized.

I think humans, modern humans have always been happy to suffer as long as they get to be lazy.

Like AI is basically, it's gonna destroy us, but at least we get to not do as much work.

And then we can just, like, happily lazily go to our demise, and that started with the dude after Cheddar Man.

[laughs]

As an Australian, of course, this is all intriguing.

In Australia, it's unbelievably clear who the first Australians were, and they're extant.

And it's, there's one little group who spread out and became numerous, but not particularly, who lived as hunter-gatherers forever and only yesterday got trampled on.

Yeah.

And then I became, I did all sorts of things, acting and cabaret and blah blah, and then I became a comedian over here, and that went...

When, when the RSC came to me about Matilda, I was in that kind of exponential rise, you know? It was the in between the year where I went from sort of art centers to big theaters.

And [laughs] singing it, When I Grow Up.

When I grow up, I will be tall enough to reach the branches that you have to reach to climb the trees you get to climb when you're grown up.

[clapping]

So what's next for Tim Minchin?

Well, I'm here like working on lots of stage musicals and screen things in embryonic form.

So I've been on tour a lot.

I've done quite a bit of acting and put out my book, which is what we talked about last time I was here.

Yes.

And I'm just like, right, I've got to get back to writing stage musicals.

So I've got like three or four that I'm having a look at and doing writing rooms.

That'll take a lot of prep, though, won't it,

So what's next for Tim Minchin?

Well, I'm here like working on lots of... stage musicals and screen things in embryonic form.

So I've been on tour a lot.

I've done quite a bit of acting and put out my book, which is what we talked about last time I was here.

Yes.

And I'm just like, right, I've got to get back to writing stage musicals.

So I've got like three or four that I'm having a look at and doing writing rooms.

That'll take a lot of prep, though, won't it, for this cruise?

So what's next for Tim Minchin?

Well, I'm here like working on lots of... stage musicals and screen things in embryonic form.

So I've been on tour a lot.

I've done quite a bit of acting and put out my book, which is what we talked about last time I was here.

Yes.

And I'm just like, right, I've got to get back to writing stage musicals.

So I've got like three or four... that I'm having a look at and doing writing rooms, and at some point I'll go, well, that's the one I'm going to pursue.

That'll take a lot of prep, though, won't it,

But also, it won't be what you're expecting it to

be.

Yeah, well, you and I are two examples of people on a curve, right? You and I both wanted to be artists.

You started out in a duo, which did, you know, suddenly you were an artist.

And I, at that age, I was just playing cover bands.

But, you know, I was still getting to be a musician of sorts.

And whatever I could have aspired to, I didn't aspire to this.

I think that's

And so do you ever look back now when you hear the music or even perform it yourself and the things that surprise you or like a younger Tim that's like,

Oh yeah, all of it really.

Like, I mean, I think I'm writing good stuff now.

But the joy of the sort of thing I do in my life is I sort of am very focused on what's in front of me.

Which means I sort of, and because I do three or four, try to do three or four different jobs, so I might be doing my concerts or writing something for telly or screenplay rather than music or acting or whatever.

I sort of disappear into a different headspace.

And then I might come back and write another musical and I'm sort of a different person.

Yeah, accessible.

Yeah.

It feels like work.

And mostly when I'm writing songs for any reason, you have a period where you're like, "I'm fucking awesome at this." And then you get to the end of the day, and you listen back, and you think, "This is the worst thing that anyone's ever made." And then at some point you decide it's fine, and you hand it in, and they say [laughs] it's fine.

[laughs]

Which was, um, which, uh, which, uh, briefly got me, um, I think five or six separate columns in the, in the, uh, Murdoch Press.

Um, uh, but, um, "I hear the tolling of the bell." Yeah, there was, there was some unnecessary rhymes in the Cardinal Pell song, but it was a necessary song.

He's rest in peace.

What do you make of the cancellations of these big shows, Beetlejuice and Waitress?

Look, I, I, I can't pretend to be an expert in the numbers.

Um, I do know-- I, I don't think you need much further explanation beyond cost of living crisis, which hits from two directions.

Obviously, all of us have lef- less money to spend on so-called luxury things, like going to the theater.

But probably more problematically for theater, it just massively increases the cost of putting on a show.

So when you launch a massive musical like Beetlejuice or Waitress or Matilda or Hamilton, there's this huge initial outlay to put the thing on.

And the costs of that, of building the set, of hiring the spaces, of, you know, sewing the costumes and doing the advertising, those costs have skyrocketed.

Mm

What do you make of the cancellations of these big shows, Beetlejuice and Waitress?

Look, I, I, I can't pretend to be an expert in the numbers.

Um, I do know-- I, I don't think you need much further explanation beyond cost of living crisis, which hits from two directions.

Obviously, all of us have lef- less money to spend on so-called luxury things, like going to the theater, but probably more problematically for theater, it just massively increases the cost of putting on a show.

So when you launch a massive musical like Beetlejuice or Waitress or Matilda or Hamilton, there's this huge initial outlay to put the thing on.

And the costs of that, of building the set, of hiring the spaces, of, you know, sewing the costumes and doing the advertising, those costs have skyrocketed.

So you go into your production massively behind financially, and then post-COVID, the people's ticket buying habits have changed.

Mm

Right.

Well, a good chunk of every song, and sent them to Matthew and Chris to go.

I just did an experiment about how much we could speed up each song because in a theater, you know, if you're, you're going, "We are revolting children living in revolting times, we sing," 'cause then you go, "Never again will you get the best of me.

Never again will you take away my freedom, and we won't forget the day we fought," or whatever that lyric is.

"We can S-P-L how we like.

If an, if an, if a wrong wrong is right." There's a tempo at which, on stage, dancing kids, out of breath, microphone in the hair, competing with 11 musicians, and Ernie yelling-

Yeah

...

And it gets to be a kind of strangely pleasing that so many cancer conditions rhyme so beautifully.

Oh, thanks, yeah.

I found the beauty in mutation.

I mean, I do... sort of to allow myself to take myself seriously.

Not just rhyme, but the sort of the game you can play that I adore.

And if you come and see me live, I think I play it across the evening, not just within the songs, which is...

this belief I have that you don't have to be sincere to be sincere and you don't have to be, you don't have to just be a clown to be funny.

And make it rhyme.

And it gets to be a kind of strangely pleasing that so many cancer conditions rhyme so beautifully.

Oh, thanks, yeah.

I found the beauty in mutation.

I mean, I do... sort of to allow myself to take myself seriously.

Not just rhyme, but the sort of the game you can play that I adore.

And if you come and see me live, I think I play it across the evening, not just within the songs, which is...

this belief I have that you don't have to be sincere to be sincere and you don't have to be, you don't have to just be a clown to be funny.

And make it rhyme.

And it gets to be a kind of strangely pleasing that so many cancer conditions rhyme so beautifully.

Oh, thanks, yeah.

I found the beauty in mutation.

I mean, I do... sort of to allow myself to take myself seriously.

Not just rhyme, but the sort of the game you can play that I adore.

And if you come and see me live, I think I play it across the evening, not just within the songs, which is...

this belief I have that you don't have to be sincere to be sincere and you don't have to be, you don't have to just be a clown to be funny.

No, but… But it typecast him forever.

But like

I was reading this great – I want to read The Swerve.

That's cool because it's very hard to – we should talk about the multiverse theory too.

But I can't get my head around infinite universes.

But let's assume there's – even just as a hypothetical, we could run the experiment of humankind X times, you know, just as a philosophical, as a thought experiment.

But, you know, there's infinite universes where religion, the development of religion saved humanity.

There's presumably in a thought experiment way infinite universes where religion destroyed humanity and we might be in one of them.

But were you aware of the shift in you of the need to go out and make a sentimental story that works on those – Well-established paths.