But what if we're applying Darwin's insights wrongly to the world and thus missing the generosity and cooperation that exist in the natural world?

And so one of the things that we tried to do when we set up Scientists' Rebellion was to instill a culture and a set of systems.

Largely, it came out of a sense that there's a huge disconnect between what the science has been saying about what we face and the political reality, as well as the response from the scientific community.

And I think a large amount of naivety about the role of the scientific community in the crisis.

And I don't mean that in a positive way entirely.

So we started it by doing an action at the Royal Society in London, which is one of the oldest, perhaps the oldest institution of science in the world, very prestigious.

And yet they don't really have any kind of a noticeable plan about climate breakdown.

But what if we're applying Darwin's insights wrongly to the world and thus missing the generosity and cooperation that exist in the natural world?

And so one of the things that we tried to do when we set up Scientists' Rebellion was to instill a culture and a set of systems.

Largely, it came out of a sense that there's a huge disconnect between what the science has been saying about what we face and the political reality, as well as the response from the scientific community.

And I think a large amount of naivety about the role of the scientific community in the crisis.

And I don't mean that in a positive way entirely.

So we started it by doing an action at the Royal Society in London, which is one of the oldest, perhaps the oldest institution of science in the world, very prestigious.

And yet they don't really have any kind of a noticeable plan about climate breakdown.

But what if we're applying Darwin's insights wrongly to the world and thus missing the generosity and cooperation that exist in the natural world?

And so one of the things that we tried to do when we set up Scientists' Rebellion was to instill a culture and a set of systems.

Largely, it came out of a sense that there's a huge disconnect between what the science has been saying about what we face and the political reality, as well as the response from the scientific community.

And I think a large amount of naivety about the role of the scientific community in the crisis.

And I don't mean that in a positive way entirely.

So we started it by doing an action at the Royal Society in London, which is one of the oldest, perhaps the oldest institution of science in the world, very prestigious.

And yet they don't really have any kind of a noticeable plan about climate breakdown.

And so how do you try to reframe it or break the frame and substitute something else? Tell us a little bit how you arrived at the kinds of protests and tactics that your group is advocating and enacting.

Every question is a really difficult issue because it gets to the heart of so much of what it is to be human, apart from anything else.

We want to believe that there is hope.

We want to believe people when they say that they're on our side and they're acting in our interests.

And we have a tendency to turn a blind eye if it's easier than the alternative.

One of the ways that you can try to disrupt that relationship is through direct action.

If you see senior people like academics, like scientists, who are quite privileged, they don't need to be going out directly and defending their lives in the way that some protesters perhaps do.