So

it's imagination of a human person I think is deeply, deeply flawed.

And I think it's heretical.

So by heretical, you mean it's at odds.

It is utterly at odds with the gospel.

With the gospel and what it should be, in your view.

And I don't, and what has surprised me is in all my theological reading, there's a lot of writing on disability theology, but I don't think people have made the connection with the imagination of the human person and where that finds its roots.

you're aiming to change people's thinking away from this unattainable perfection, whether physical or in any other way, to acknowledging the reality of how it is for all of us, if I've got that right.

So what, what do you do in that sense?

Okay.

So we go back to the early 1800s.

1801, a family member of ours was born, my great, great, great, great-grandfather, and at the age of 11, he lived in Scarborough in Yorkshire, which is where I'm from, and he went to sea.

Apparently, own of his, his own volition, he chose that he wanted to do that.

So he went to sea at the age of 11, and back then, you know, I mean, the Northwest Passage wasn't even discovered.

People hadn't even, you know, their HMS Beagle hadn't even gone through the Beagle Channel with Darwin.

Now, that was partly 'cause I was home alone a lot in the run-up, but like they wanted to get in the sleeping bags and they wanted to put my coats on, and like, "What's that?" "Well, that's an ice ax." "What's an ice ax?" And so actually then suddenly, "Oh, Daddy, how was Antarctica?" was the thing, rather than, "Where the hell have you been, my distant father?"