Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And the relationship, I guess, Eric, for you, you know, is key, and for me, it's key.

And, you know, there's models, ideas in that, that, you know, without relationship in the therapeutic alliance, you know, it's really tricky to navigate that trust and having hope and, um, yeah, someone opening up.

So I think that was really important, wasn't it, initially?

And Tim, what would you like the listeners to know about shame?

Yeah.

I, I, I guess I'd like to, if that's okay, Dale, to ask you, you know, the listeners may be thinking, you mentioned strategies, you mentioned ways to cope.

But first, Tim, you have a few comments that you'd like to add to our last conversation.

Thanks, Eric.

I just thought it was important to clarify, following on from when we last caught up, that I guess firstly, though clearly God has worked in Dale and my life, bringing you found freedoms, In my work I've also worked with many non-Christians alike who've also experienced a form of healing, freedoms from shame.

Thus people from different backgrounds, varying faiths and commitments to life have benefited from how I've worked.

And I can't speak on behalf of their stories, but with Dale it's clear, which we'll explore shortly.

Also, I think it's important to add that healing in my work doesn't necessarily mean you're fixed, and that is a dominant idea here as well, or your pain is removed.

And I learned from Dale regarding these ideas that healing can mean many things.

What would you call this?

then

what happened? Well, from there, letting go of my worldly wealth, in a sense, and starting afresh and being renewed, I was employed in social services and I felt a real calling towards that work.

And I was working in mental health at the time.

And from there, that just leapfrogged me into sort of exploring churches at the time.

Yeah.

How was God working in your heart during all this? It just emphasized how relationships really matter to me, Eric, and the importance of that.

And I think God was working in me that, you know, if I haven't got the relationship with God, it's really tricky to lean on the relationship with others and be fully present in that.

So how did you finally put your faith in Jesus as your Saviour?