Those early projects and that early business, knowing what you know now, how important were those small projects, and how did you turn those small projects into that first rock climbing project?

There's a lot to unpack there, but I think I'll focus on a couple of the early learning lessons.

There is a false sense of security one has as an employee.

There is your employer.

You serve your employer.

You do a good job.

You focus on your work, and you get your paycheck.

How are you doing that? Are you doing that intentionally or are you doing that by watch me how I do things, and you do them like I do?

What does that mean? And can you give me some examples of how you kind of bring that to life in some of your work?

That, I mean, that's a great question.

It's also a tough one to answer, but I'll do my best.

So...

A brand is sort of like a promise or a guarantee of some sort.

Like when you recognize a brand, you kind of know what you're going to get.

You know what to expect.

I want to try to draw some learnings from other industries and sort of bring them into the climbing industry.

Projects, if you're comfortable talking about it, of course, projects that failed for one reason or another, you know, something you designed leaked or I don't know, something with a foundation, something with a structure, any bad experiences that you're comfortable sharing that was a good lesson for you and would be a good lesson for the listeners.

Fortunately, We haven't been holding the ugly end of that stick in a way that's meaningful.

So the mistakes that we've made, I've been able to fix personally.

They've been little things where it's like, you didn't want that, you told me that, you showed me the email, and yet we installed, for instance, A wall integrated trash can directly below a hand dryer.

Just a stupid mistake.

And it's just like, man.

All right.

Why the hell are you guys so expensive?