Mm.

Mr. Edwards did.

But what their questioning did go to was her collection of samples, how they were labeled, how they were sealed, how they were handled, how they were um, documented, and how they were h- handed over.

Um, because that is at the heart of where the defense want to go, which is continuity of evidence, possible forensic breakdowns in process to try and build a picture of possible flaws which could have led to one of those samples, which we know is Mr. Edwards, somehow coming into contact with a sample that was yet to be taken because i- uh, M- Ms. Glennon's body was only discovered in 1997.

So that's where they would, that, that's where the, all their questioning was, was focused on because that's all they needed to focus on.

Prosecution, on the other hand, they, they, they had several irons in the fire today.

Th- there will be a sentencing of Mr. Edwards for the Karrakatta rape down the track at some point, and um, Justice Hall might well take into ... will, will have to take into account the injuries that were caused and the emotional distress that was caused, which we've al- already heard from because um, the Karrakatta victim's various statements have already been read out.

What was his role and in relationship to which scenes?

There's so many people handled the evidence [laughs] and opened and closed that bag, which I'm sure the defense is gonna hone in on.

Yeah.

So yeah, so particular things that were pointed out today, there's a hair sample that was taken from Kirra at the scene.

Um, they basically just snipped a, a lock of her hair, um, and secured it in a w- a, a yellow pot, um, which is gonna be, be very crucial because prosecutors say that when that hair sample was tested more than 20 years later, um, rereading the transcript today, in opening, Ms. Barbagallo said that piece of hair was placed in this yellow pot, marked as an evidence RH17, and then sat on a shelf for 21 years and wasn't retested until basically after Mr. Edwards was arrested.

And then two, two of these blue, crucial blue fibers were found in that hair sample.

Um, but when the video recording was being taken of the scene by Mr. Taraci, who we dis- discussed earlier in the week, that was not on the video recording.

Um, and we don't know why, whether that, that was one of the gaps in the recording that we discussed earlier, or whether he was just happened to be filming something else at that time.

So Theresa from the Gold Coast has asked, "When the police obtained the DNA from Bra- Bradley Edwards, what made them decide to follow him in particular? I understand that they had old DNA from the Karrakatta Cemetery and from under Keyra Glenan's fingernails, but what made them decide to track Bradley Edwards?"

So, um, from my perspective doing the blog, it was, it was actually nice to actually have something to write about, um, what I was hearing him describing at, at both scenes, which was, um, some of it was quite harrogi- harrowing at times, so.

Yeah.

I mean, he basically walked us through the, the, the both scenes, but particular, um, Ciara's scene, um, this morning and then this afternoon.

And the, the, the video that was, that was taken at the scene was a lot longer than the one that was played, um, at, at Jane's scene.

It went for, for over an hour, and Mr. Hemla was intimately involved in the, uh, in the recovery, um, of, of the body, and then obviously taking the exhibits from that, from the, from Ciara's body as well.

And so he basically walked us through everything that was happening on screen and then, uh, also what he'd done, um, post the scene as well, which i- it included going and taking, uh, fiber samples from Ciara's house where she lived with her mom and dad, from her work, from her office, from her car, from, um, her dad's car, um, which we now know, uh, I mean, it was obviously relevant then, but it's gonna be extraordinarily relevant now given that, given that fibers are gonna play a major part in, in the prosecution case.

evidenceSo Tim, uh, was there some significance in some of those things that were collected in terms of, uh, DNA and fibers?

Oh, certainly, Nat.

And I guess this goes to what we've been talking about, Tim, as to why we're not seeing this footage and why nobody is seeing this footage in court apart from those that have to.

Yeah, I mean, as we discussed earlier this week, Justice Hall's made that call.

He's, w- I don't think, well, not, I mean, no one has argued with it, we never would, um, because he's, he's the judge, it is his court, and he runs it how he sees fit.

I don't think anyone would necessarily want to see it, wish to see it, desire to see it.

I mentioned it in, in a previous podcast this week, thinking about it personally, um, and only for the reason of being able to do our jobs properly, you'd w- you might, uh, um, say, "I'd prefer to see it rather than having it described to me." But as Shannon mentioned, the way it was described today, you got a, an absolute full, um, measure and description of what's going on.

So, in a w- after today, you don't think you'd, as a court reporter and someone who's trying to bring the trial to people who can't be in court, you don't think you're gonna miss out on any- anything in terms of evidence and i- it, the importance of it from today if that's gonna continue.

And given that it's, Mr. Hemmings is gonna be continue giving evidence certainly tomorrow, you'd think that style of evidence is going to, um, to continue.

Um, what was the accused, um, doing today? Was he, uh, paying attention to the screen or...?

And guys, today we really got a snippet of just how intense things became with the discovery of Ciara's body.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, that's right, Nat.

Um, mayhem was one word that was used.

Um, organized chaos that I've written in the paper, uh, tomorrow, which is what it sounded like.

It was organized, but it, there was a hell of a lot going on, a hell of a lot of people going on, um, around both scenes.

Um, as we discussed yesterday, we, uh, we heard evidence about the discovery of Jane's body, and today we heard more, uh, or fresh evidence about the discover of, discovery of Ciara's body, which was obviously the third young woman that was missing.

No.

Mm-hmm

... um, as they came to the scene and discovered what they found and, and then, and had to describe obviously now to the court, um, what the scene was.

Um, but what hadn't been established or firmed up was exactly how all that material was going to be displayed in court.

As we've discussed before, this is an electronic trial, so all the documents and photographs and videos are being shown on big screens around the court as well as all the smaller screens on the bar table.

But when it came to the crunch this morning, um, Justice Hall and the two sides, both defense and prosecution, came to the conclusion that they were, no one was comfortable with any of this sensitive material being shown on large screens in court.

But also, it, that meant that it shouldn't be shown on small screens, which are on the bar table, which are clearly visible from the back of the court, particularly for the media because they're, we, we're in the front rows, but for all the public gallery behind, and I've gotta say today they're, the public gallery was absolutely packed again.

So what was eventually concluded was that the front four screens at the front bar table, which is where Mr. Jovovich and Mr. Bar- Miss Barbagalos sit, the, the, uh, screens, those screens should be able to, um, show and, uh, the, the videos and photographs, but none of the other screens in court.

Mm

Yes.

Um, and then he also said that he noticed a car, um, a white station wagon, and he was very clear on the description, and we'll get to that in a minute, driving very s- s- or slower than, much slower than the speed limit, he remembered seeing it, going in the same direction as he'd seen this young lady, um, walking.

So that was the, the, I mean, that was the, the, the crux of the, um, crux of the evidence.

Um, but, uh, as the car and the lady sort of disappeared into the distance, um, they also, uh, one of, one of their number, Mr.

Bond, said he, he saw her, um, that car stopped, and he saw the lady, which we think is Keyra, uh, leaning into that car.

Mm-hmm.

She was adamant that she'd never done it, um, ever.

Um, because she took her, what was in the bag descriptions up from the, from the labeling and the way it was logged in these books.

Did you notice Kirra in her black skirt and white fitted top with her black jacket tied around her waist and knotted at the front? So Tim, I, I guess, um, you found out today that it turns out many people did see Kirra that night.

Mm.

Yeah, and, um, and all those mentions in that video there were basically spot on, um, according to the witnesses that we've, we- we've heard from, um, today.

We heard from a lady who actually worked in that restaurant that was mentioned in the video.

We heard from a lady who actually remembered distinctly Kirra walking with a, with the jacket, um, around her waist, and we heard from, uh, well, virtually everyone describing her, her white top, her dark wavy hair, her black skirt, um, her, her, her very, uh, you know, distinctive, um, figure, um, in the early hours of Claremont.

Um, and we basically plotted, um, her exit from the Ho- the Continental Hotel, um, all the way down Bay View Terrace, turning right onto Stirling Highway, and then as you said in your intro, Nat, this, this car that was seen by at least two people parked on the side of the road, and a young woman fitting Kirra's description, um, leaning inside, seemingly, um, talking to the driver.

They were looking around.

Yeah, well, that's what, that's what we've h- heard so far in the opening was, was that people were on, well, we obviously know people were on high alert, um, but a lone female, um, a, an attractive lone female at, at that time of night alone in Claremont, um, did apparently draw, um, comment and, and, and draw particular notice from, from various members of the public who then once it was o- it was, you know, evident that Kirra was, uh, was missing, um, and that particular re-enactment was done, um, it brought forth, um, numerous bits of information.

Um, and it was, yes, quite distressing.

Yeah, and then [clears throat] she explained how, um... [sighs] I mean, obviously everyone was quite distressed by the situation, which, which, which was basically just unfolding.

Um, her riding partner, um, had gone off, and, um, the husband of the lady who'd actually discovered Jane's body had also gone to the riding stables, um, to basically call for help, um, to alert the police.

Um, and, uh, yeah, and she said, um, "I didn't leave," um, because this lady said she didn't wanna leave, as it turned out, Jane on her own, and neither did she.

And that's when in court she, she, she was basically holding back tears as she, as she remembered that moment.

Mm.

And, um, always ha- hard to, hard to listen to, but, um, and in the context of the trial, they are vital because, um, the prosecutors will point to them over and over again and, and say, "There is no doubt now because Mr. Edwards has pleaded guilty, that he is capable of this type of behavior, um, and, uh, that we, we say he, he's done it before, um, so what's, what's to say he didn't do it again?" And that's, that's the propensity that they, um, that they talk to.

And, um, uh, y- and the, the fact that, um, the, the, the victim herself was there, um-

So he was woken up by that, and he sort of described it as being about three to five seconds, um, and then dead silence and nothing after that.

Yeah, it was, it was, well, it was pretty, uh, as you say, similar to the, to the Mosman Park screams that we've heard about, um, in relation to Sarah.

But, um, uh, if anything, the way they described, the, the, the two couples today and yesterday, the way they described this, these screams was even more chilling and more piercing and perhaps because it was in such a, a rural area at the time.

Um, uh, and it was slightly different evidence, but obviously, uh, similar.

The first couple, um, s- indeed, indeed the first gentleman, um, said that when he heard the scream, he heard some words to go with it, um, very loud and very clear.

Um, and then they were they along the lines of, "Leave me alone.

Let me get out of here," and then screams to go with it.

Was there much of that today?

Mm

...

but she went to the Continental first.

Spent a good, um, couple of hours there.

And then there was, um, uh, the Club Bay View, which we've discussed before, was another pub just down the, down the road, about 200 meters down the road.

Um, and she was, um, on her way there with her friends, um, when she made the, the fateful decision, um, not to get in the taxi, uh, with her friends, um, who had also decided not to go.

So, um, a bit like, um, uh, uh, you know, m- many nights out, it was, it was a bit freewheeling, it was a bit random.

But there was an, uh, eyewitness account of Kira later in the night?

when they went to Claremont, and you can see her walking backwards and forwards in very, very clear vision that we hadn't seen before, have we, Tim?

No, that's right, and it was, it was ba- basically vision that was, was scooped up by the detectives back in the day, um, after Jane went missing.

Obviously, I mean, that's when, I mean, really macro sort of, um, you know, went from sort of 10 miles an hour to 1,000 miles an hour, and they, and they were looking for every investigative lead they could, and obviously, um, CCTV is an obvious option.

And, um, so that's what, th- th- they've scooped it all up and, and, you know, here, here we are again, as we've mentioned so many times, 23 years later, seeing it for the, in public for the first time.

And it, uh, and as Ali says, it was, it was very clear vision.

Um, gi- given, given the, you know, the sort of the, how long ago it was and, and the quality of cameras back in the day, um, it w- it was clear.

Particularly, there was, uh, one very clear shot of, of Jane coming down the stairs of the Continental Hotel.

Mm-hmm

Mm.

Walked away again, and a- at this point she thought, "Well, it must be over by now." Try, started to get up, and then he came back a third time, picked her up and p- placed her in an, a, a, a nearby sort of more dense bush, basically just threw her in there.

Her hands are still tied at this point.

She's, um, you know, her clothes have been ripped off her.

Um, um, and obviously, I mean, you can imagine the pain and also emotional and physical distress.

And at that point he had left.

Um, and so she's waited a, a, a decent amount of time, and then basically got up and, and, and tried to, to make her escape, which she has.

Yeah

So she recounted that in great detail today.

And strong and clear, very clear in her recollection.

And I mean, you could physically see, um, this lady, um, steeling herself for the, for the m- which I- I'd call it an ordeal, um, because it would be.

Um, you know, the court was packed again, so we got the impression that, uh, uh, uh, well, c- certainly the, the, the lady's sort of closest supporters obviously knew it was coming today.

Um, and yeah, w- I mean, when she walked into court you could sort of see herself steeling herself.

But once she got on the stand she was clear, she was precise, she was meticulous in the detail that she went through.

Um, uh, I mean, she was just a really impressive witness-

Right.

Is, is that right?

Yeah, that's right.

You can't...

Well, yeah, I mean, well, it, it is and it isn't.

You, you can be recalled, um, as a witness, but not if you forget something, only if the judge or the, the prosecution or the defense think that they, they, they, they might have something to add.

And it's pretty exceptional for a witness to be, to be recalled, but it, it does happen.

Um, and y- th- you know, they're given their statements and, and, y- you know, the, it's not a me- it's, well, it is a memory test, but it's not, it's not like an exam where you go in and you're not allowed to have your notes or whatever.

if the prosecution cuts off the witness, and the judge does want to know more and lead them down that path, can he do that?

Yeah

... and, and, and getting around Perth with, with, you know, late at night, um, sort of slightly intoxicated with no shoes.

And, uh, and the last living witness of the day, and the last witness of the day was, was possibly one of the more interesting ones, um, 'cause she gave an account of, uh, of a night, the night after Sarah went missing, when she was on in, on Stirling Highway by the Hungry Jack's, which we've heard so much about, and she was basically, she's, how she described being eyeballed by the driver of a white Telstra car, um, uh, who, who pulled over and was basically staring straight at her, um, for, you know, a, a, as, a long enough time for her to get concerned and basically, you know, tell him or ask him quite loudly, "What do you want? What are you doing?" Um, and, um, she was of such interest to the police that, um, in late '98, when obviously the, the triple murder investigation was in full swing, um, she made an identikit or, or gave the police a, a description, um, of the man that she said she saw in this car and, uh, and had, and had, and nerved her.

Um, and, um, we got to, to see that identikit and, uh, today in court, and I've got to say, he didn't bear much resemblance to Mr. Edwards, um, the accused, either then or now.

So, um, that sort of, um, throws another little, um, spanner in the works, uh, of, of the, um, of the prosecution.

And if you remember back to Mr. Jovovich's opening, he said, "Oh, well, look, the prosecution want to paint this neat little pic- pretty little picture of all, you know, all these, you know, really, um, regular common sightings of Telstra cars," and, you know, the, the man was basically the same looking.

And, um, seeing that identikit in, in, in, you know, glorious black and white today, um, that was one of the rough edges that Mr. Jovovich said that he would, um, point towards-

Wow

Yeah

... using a cloth.

Uh, he gags them, tries to, um, subdue them, and then drag them off, um, as he did in this case, as he did in, uh, '88 in Huntingdale, he's already admitted that, where he attacked the, the young girl from behind in her own bedroom, and then obviously Karakatta as well.

So there's that propensity.

They wanna show him as a, as a, as an attacker of, of lone women, vulnerable women, um, whether it be day or night.

And they also wanna use the psychologist's report as, as, as basically their springboard for their emotional turmoil, um, motive, um, theory, um, because as we heard from both doctors who then interviewed Mr. Edwards after this attack today, he told them both, "I was upset because of the argument with my girlfriend," who we now, know became his first wife.

Um, "I was, uh, I was emotionally all over the place, and that's why I did it." So there's two strands to that.

Yeah.

Well, this was a very interesting revelation today.

Yeah, it was.

Um, w- we, it had sort of been flagged, um, in, in, in previous, um, previous iterations of the, uh, of the court hearings, but we, we got to hear it, um, firsthand basically today.

So this was a, a chap called Murray Cook, who was a, a, a good friend of Bradley Edwards back in the day, um, they used to play pool and have a, a- have a beer together and also work together.

Um, and it al- it all reve- revolved around a couple of weeks in March 1997 when Mr. Cook unfortunately was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, which is why it sticks in his mind.

[laughs]

Yeah.

So yeah, Monday, um, there is a witness, so who was the boyfriend of Mr. Edwards's first wife.

Mm-hmm.

Another was of, um, a, a, a family trip around Perth which was being filmed, which the second wife said was to send to her family overseas to sh- show them the sights of Perth without having to make the, the very long plane ride to get here.

And then the second one, which was the one that Mr. Edwards really reacted strongly to, was, was footage of him playing, um, totem tennis with his then stepdaughter, um, which was on the, on the front of, of, of one of their properties.

And, um, I mean, it was just your classic family scene really.

Um, sun in, sunshine in the background, blue sky, um, you know, colorful tennis rackets, green lawn, and, um, this apparently loving stepfather and his, his stepdaughter enjoying some time together and, and joking around.

So it was-

Um, and she's asked if we could perhaps just give a, a brief explanation as to why is this case before a judge only, and not a jury.

Obviously, the jury, uh, is, is at the heart of the justice system in here, and, and, and most Western democracies.

What sort of questions, uh, were being asked of her today, Tim?

Well, as you, as you said, Nat, sort of quite intimate questions, but they were quite, um, um, they were directed to a certain, um, strategy of the prosecution.

I mean, they, they, they weren't just questions for no reason, and, and if they had been, the p- the judge and probably the defense lawyer would've stood up and, uh, said something about it.

But she was basically taken through her relationship, um, with Mr. Edwards, um, from, from start to finish.

Um, and, uh, from basically from when they met to w- w- when and where they got married, the, the status of the relationship all the way through, and then the, the, the disintegration of the relationship and what happened after that.

And the reason for that, ostensibly or, or, or, or most pointedly from the prosecution, is what we've discussed before about the, the, the motive for, the theory of the motive from the prosecution, which is that the emotional triggers or the emotional turmoil in Mr. Edwards' personal life was then driving me, driving him on to, um, basically take out his frustrations on, on, on lone women.

And so the, um, the, the details of that, the dates of that, the, the lead up, um, to, to those things were, was what, um, Mrs. Barbara Gallo, the prosecutor, was, was trying to get out of the witness, and also some other details about cars that he'd driven and, and his appearance at certain times during their marriage, whether he had a beard or not, and things like that.

So he's invited his, um, ex-wife at this point to fireworks somewhere.

Yeah

... um, because I don't think there's any dispute that it's her.

Um, and so a- as the boys said, the timeline, the chronology I think is gonna be quite important because the Spears case, out of the three, is obviously, um, the, the most circumstantial because there's no physical evidence, i.e. the body, and so it's very important for the prosecution to make this timeline because they later went on to say that in Mosman Park there were four, um, separate accounts of hearing a woman scream at a certain point, um, which is they, they will say that was the point that the attack occurred.

And obviously, so they can put that timeline in place quite solidly with that physical evidence.

Obviously, there's the emotional impact of it, but there's also the, the evidentiary impact of it, and that was echoed a little bit later when we saw pictures of Jane Rimmer that have never been seen publicly before, as far as I know, in the, in the Continental Hotel, um, leaving and smiling and dancing and, um, so yeah, there was a real sort of physical, um, element to the, the case today that you don't normally get in openings-

... um, we obviously heard, you know, the timeline of Jane Rimmer's night in Claremont, and then we also heard about when her body was found, and we should probably warn people that there was some, um, graphic details in that in court today.

Yeah.

I mean, it w- so it, it w- it was graphic.

Uh, it really was a bombshell when Bradley Edwards was charged.

Oh, absolutely.

N- I mean, uh, I, I remember taking the call personally myself from, from the news desk, um, sort of late that night, um, the day before it was officially announced by W Police and, WA Police, and, uh, I, I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

I don't think my, uh, chiefs of staff at the time could believe that he, what he was telling me.

Um, certainly the police reporters th- th- then, you know, were rushing around trying to confirm these details.

When I spoke to them later that night, they couldn't believe what they were having to write.

Um, it was just one of those, you know, cliched moments that I suppose you'll always remember where you were.

What can you tell us about Carmel Barbagallo?

Yeah

... um, and it's a, an horrific alleged crime.

So, um, the victim at the time was 17 years old, had been out to Club Bayview in Claremont and was walking home about 2:30.

Um, was basically snatched off the street, um, um, abducted, put into a car, had a hood placed over her head, um, and then was, uh, driven around for quite a while, um, before being taken to a, a very isolated part of what is al- already a quite a, a, a, a, a lonely place in Karrakatta Cemetery.

Um, he's then allegedly, um, sexually assaulted this, this girl, um, in the most degrading and in, and dehumanizing way you could possibly think of, um, over, um...

It wasn't over in minutes, let's, let's put it that way.

Um, has then- Um, picked her up, um, dumped her in the bushes, um, and you can imagine the horror and terror of, of being basically just snatched, um, gagged, um, hooded, and then, you know, violated in this way.

Okay, so Tim, are there five or so occasions involving this Telstra vehicle we're hearing about?