Is it true that when you call triple zero that that person will arrive and they will resuscitate?

Yeah, so this is often a real gray area that we find ourselves in because, you know, sometimes the conversations have been held about the do not resuscitate, which is great.

But then sometimes the paperwork is missing or, you know, it's they thought it was in the drawer, but it's not or it's at the GP's or the staff at the nursing home, the computers are down so they can't print it out.

So you end up again in this this awkward gray area situation where it's like, we know the persons have advanced years we know that you know their heart has stopped and the chances of them surviving are very low but unfortunately the official document that tells us not to do anything has gone missing so what do we do we're in this sort of moral gray area where you know, the system or the employer or whatever it may be tells us we have to do everything because, you know, or else, you know, if you don't, you're in trouble because the magic document that tells you what to do is not there.

Even though everyone knows the reality is, you know, documents there somewhere, we just can't visualize it and our attempts are going to be futile.

So what do you do? You find yourself Do you go against the lack of paperwork and just not resuscitate and risk litigation or legal threats from, I don't know, maybe not the direct family that have arranged the paperwork, but maybe the cousin who lives interstate that never visits that is suddenly frustrated that the paramedics didn't try and resuscitate because the paperwork wasn't there? Or do you, as I've been in some situations, do you start resuscitating the poor, frail person in the nursing home or have witnessed other staff resuscitating while the family then arrives to, you know, the paramedics or staff committing quite a brutal, nasty act, which is probably not nasty is the right word, but it's a very harrowing thing to witness.

Like, it's not pleasant.

Tim, would you say like conversations are important, but also that paperwork, those advanced care directives, are they something as a tool that can be used by people to really communicate to the paramedics? Like what is the best practice that you've seen for that?

[laughs]

Well, listen.

All right.

We live in a cult.

Cult is culture, that's what it means, and it's we live in a cult.

Everything about our upbringing is a cult.

There are all these crazy beliefs we are brought up within our families that maybe they're Christian, maybe they're Muslim, maybe they're whatever the background is.

Yeah, it's really good.

been fags.

They'd been slaves, basically.

And they wanted to be able to treat the new kids as slaves.

And then they suddenly couldn't.

But there was a lot of bullying.

And, you know, called new scum all the time.

And...

So this possibly, I mean, it's not exactly suggesting that it's a silver lining to the cloud that you've described, but that self-reliance that you learn at boarding school possibly gave you the ability not to care too much about what they thought.

Uh, we've seen you on the telly many times stopping caravans in your high vis.

When I left Lincolnshire Police, I was fortunate to be approached by the then director general of the Camping and Caravanning Club.

Again, I've done work with the, the clubs and the National Caravan Council.

At the same time, the late David Ainsworth, who was then the assistant chief constable of Wiltshire, was setting up a new policing unit called the, um, Association of Chief Police Officers Vehicle Crime Intelligence Service.

Big name, but they were looking at all genre of, uh, vehicle thefts.

They were out together, David and, um, Mr. Ainsworth, and he happened to say, "Well, who's gonna do your leisure vehicles then?" "Well, I think I might know somebody." And that was my in to the what is now the National Vehicle Crime Intelligence Service as their leisure vehicles officer.

Brand-new role from then, and that then developed.

Yeah.