So we just wanted to kick off, Tom, with how you kind of got introduced to this as mom was alluding to in your very young years with a large family on both sides and your experience there, how that kind of kicked off for you way back when.

I could fill an hour telling you about that.

I'll try to be concise.

It's important to fill in some of the pieces.

My father was one of 10.

My mother was one of nine.

They all married, save for one on each side.

Do you want to mention what they are, just for those who don't know much about this topic of grief?

It's okay not to know, but can you share with our listeners right now, just a snippet about the work that you've done, your calling and your purpose, um, around grief, grieving, healing, and then also, um, how did you get started in this philosophy?

Well, that's the whole talk here, or conversation.

I'll try to be a bit swift, but enough detail so people can understand.

I grew up in two large families.

My father was one of 10 and my mother was one of nine.

And in each case, they all married save one.

So I had 30 aunts and uncles and eventually wound up with about 30 to 35 cousins.

Yes.

So what exactly was the spark that got you into this and kind of on the path you're on right now?

There are quite a few sparks.

I'll just trace a bit of a history.

I grew up in two large families.

My mother was one of nine.

My dad was one of ten.

And all of them married with one exception on each side of the family.

philosophy? Yeah, just like in general.

Oh.

Uh, and in the early days, uh, we didn't drive long distances to go to funerals.

My dad was 18 years older than my mother, and his family started dying while I was still small.

Typically, a letter would come in, and my mother would read the letter out loud to the whole family about how Uncle So-and-So or Aunt So-and-So had died, uh, sometimes in great detail, uh, sometimes gruesome.

Uh, and I just got used to the idea that in families, people die, uh, and, uh, everybody needs to know about it, and it's perfectly fine.

Turns out that very few of my friends ever had experiences like that.

My editor with my first couple of books with Oxford University Press had never heard of anybody doing anything like that in a family, and it was just...

Mm-hmm.