So what did contemporary Christian music have to do with early U2 and then this recent New York Times mega interview on the band's 50th anniversary?

It's really interesting the degree to which the arguments surrounding the start of U2 and in particular, the religious beliefs of three members of the band at that point, how much it affected their music early on and affected their attitude toward Christian communities early on.

Basically, at one point, going into their second album, the October album, They had Christians around them in charismatic Bible groups, et cetera, and whatever, telling them they couldn't be Christians and be a rock band.

At the same time, they had people handing them contemporary Christian music albums.

CCM is the great acronym for this.

People were handing them CCM albums saying, this is what y'all need to make.

this is this is what you need to sound like and this is what your lyrics need to sound like and they were not interested in that at all they wanted to try to be one of the the biggest bands in the greater united kingdom they were listening to david bowie they were listening to all kinds of people the clash all kinds of folks like that and while they were not attempting to hide their religious beliefs, at least especially not Bono and The Edge, who were the primary writers for everything, while they were putting their religious beliefs directly into the music of the second album.

And I don't think Bono has ever been quiet about his view of this administration, but he kind of extends an olive branch in the interview to... what he calls conservative voters who are voting for all different reasons

So what did contemporary Christian music have to do with early U2 and then this recent New York Times mega interview on the band's 50th anniversary?

It's really interesting the degree to which the arguments surrounding the start of U2, and in particular, the religious beliefs of three members of the band at that point, how much it affected their music early on and affected their attitude toward Christian communities early on.

Basically, at one point, going into their second album, the October album, They had Christians around them in charismatic Bible groups, et cetera, and whatever, telling them they couldn't be Christians and be a rock band.

At the same time, they had people handing them contemporary Christian music albums.

CCM is the great acronym for this.

People were handing them CCM albums saying, this is what y'all need to make.

This is what you need to sound like, and this is what your lyrics need to sound like.

They do get into that in the middle of the interview, but I noticed that Bono is very quick to offer an olive branch to Trump voters.

What is an independent Methodist? And other than millions of dollars, what's at stake in the drama that's unfolding there in Dallas?

Independent Methodist is a very interesting term.

I think you could have an independent Lutheran easier than you could have an independent Methodist.

when you say you're an independent Presbyterian, you're to some degree negating the Presbyterian system of governance.

And the same thing is true with Methodists.

It'd be like an independent Anglican, and it would almost be as weird as saying an independent Catholic.

In fact, I heard a Catholic archbishop years ago—it will remain nameless— say that in terms of raw power over the lives of people in pews— A Methodist bishop, he said, had more actual clout than a Roman Catholic bishop.

What did he say?

What is an independent Methodist? And other than millions of dollars, what's at stake in the drama that's unfolding there in Dallas?

Independent Methodist is a very interesting term.

I think you could have an independent Lutheran easier than you could have an independent Methodist.

When you say you're an independent Presbyterian, you're to some degree negating the Presbyterian system of governance.

And the same thing is true with Methodists.

It'd be like an independent Anglican, and it would almost be as weird as saying an independent Catholic.

In fact, I heard a Catholic archbishop years ago, it will remain nameless, say that in terms of raw power over the lives of people in pews, A Methodist bishop, he said, had more actual clout than a Roman Catholic bishop.

What did he say?

What are they?

Well, the CNN story, that's really the big one.

That's the main one.

But it's linked to a series of documentaries, Christianity at a Crossroads, that have run at PBS.

So you've got two different major organizations that are involved in that big story, and that's the main one we need to talk about.

But at the same time, you have the kind of down to the details, nuts and bolts material that you would expect to find from Ryan Berg, a very important Ryan Berg piece that he did a number of years ago about kind of the zip code level look at what's growing and what's shrinking.

And then Baptist Press, a couple of months ago, noted that their research shows that lots of churches are dying and closing, but that almost as many new churches are being started in America, which raises the question, okay, why and where will you find the dying churches, and where will you find the new growing churches? I recently was in Las Vegas, headed to Alaska, and I sat down with the city missionary who for Las Vegas with the Southern Baptist Convention, and they are opening churches all over the place.

How important is this angle, the rise of contraception culture and then the attendant declining birth rates that cut across all of, well, really almost globally?

What are they?

Well, the CNN story, that's really the big one.

That's the main one.

But it's linked to a series of documentaries, Christianity at a Crossroads, that have run at PBS.

So you've got two different major organizations there involved in that big story, and that's the main one we need to talk about.

But at the same time, you have the kind of down to the details, nuts and bolts material that you would expect to find from Ryan Berg, a very important Ryan Berg piece that he did a number of years ago about kind of the zip code level look at what's growing and what's shrinking.

And then Baptist Press, a couple of months ago, noted that their research shows that lots of churches are dying and closing, but that almost as many new churches are being started in America, which raises the question, okay, why and where will you find the dying churches, and where will you find the new growing churches? I recently was in Las Vegas, headed to Alaska, and I sat down with the city missionary for Las Vegas with the Southern Baptist Convention, and they are opening churches all over the place.

How important is that, the rise of contraception culture and the resulting decline in birth rates, well, really globally?

So what other voices were included in the media coverage? Other religious voices were included in the media coverage reacting to this planned execution.

Well, like, like I said, you got precisely the evangelical point of view that you would expect to find in a coverage, in a story, by the Religion News Service, which tends to act as the official public clearinghouse for the views of liberal mainland Protestants.

So you've got the head of the Episcopal Church, you've got African-American leaders who are opposed to the death penalty, and you got to some other voices that I'll get to here in a second.

But the stereotypical one that you knew you were going to get would be, listen to this, you couldn't get a word of this misplaced.

Pastor Robert Jeffress, a longtime supporter of President Donald Trump, who leads First Baptist Church in Dallas, told RNS he supports Hegseth's decision.

And the decision, of course, is public execution in a way that the public has a chance to witness it.

and then you have an email from jeffries capital punishment is commanded by god in genesis 9 6 to remind people of the sanctity of human life jeffries the southern baptist said in an email life is so valuable god said that whoever takes a life should pay with his own life the more people that can see that truth illustrated to a public education the better Now, of course, RNS is quickly going to accurately state that right now, when you look around the world, people who do public executions are primarily in Muslim regimes in the Middle East.

1961, I

So what other voices were included in the media coverage, other religious voices were included in the media coverage reacting to this planned execution?

Well, like, like I said, you got precisely the evangelical point of view that you would expect to find in a coverage in a story by the Religion News Service, which tends to act as the official public clearing house for the views of liberal mainline Protestants.

So you got a spokes- You got the head of the Episcopal Church, you got African American leaders who are opposed to the death penalty, and you got to some other voices that I, I'll get to here in a second.

But the stereotypical one that you knew you were gonna get would be, uh, listen to this.

You couldn't get a word of this misplaced.

Pastor Robert Jeffress, a longtime supporter of President Donald Trump, who leads First Baptist Church in Dallas, told RNS he supports Hegseth's decision.

And the decision, of course, is public execution in a way that the public has a chance to witness it.

1961, I believe.

Where did the Jim Bakker scandals really begin, and did that make it into the coverage of his death?

The short answer is the story is a lot more complex than what made it into the mainstream media coverage of his death.

I know that because I was there.

I was at the Charlotte News and then the Charlotte Observer when a lot of this started.

But I think the single most important thing we need to address, and whether...

It's a more important subject that needed to get into this story, and that was who or what was Jim Bakker and what do we know about his audience? I would start by dropping the word televangelism, because that was a word that was made up by the press.

Hardly anybody involved in that era of religious broadcasting was doing anything that resembled evangelism.

So talk about that, 'cause when the first Presley passed through your hands, why didn't your editors wanna hear about it?

Where did the Jim Bakker scandals really begin, and did that make it into the coverage of his death?

The short answer is the story is a lot more complex than what made it into the mainstream media coverage of his death.

I know that because I was there.

I was at The Charlotte News and then The Charlotte Observer when a lot of this started.

But I think the single most important thing we need to address, and whether it's a more important subject that needed to get into this story, and that was who or what was Jim Bakker, and what do we know about his audience? I would start by dropping the word televangelism, because that was a word that was made up by the press.

Hardly anybody involved in that era of religious broadcasting was doing anything that resembled evangelism.

If you were going to define evangelism in any term, that would be recognized by a church historian or someone who was looking at someone whose primary purpose is to deliver messages that call people to faith in Jesus Christ.

So talk about that, 'cause when the first Presley passed through your hands, why didn't your editors wanna hear about it?

Do the words sin or Eden appear in this very long story in The New York Times?

Yeah.

Uh, Eden as in the Garden of...

And the answer to both of those is no.

They are implied, though, everywhere.

Which-- Do-- Put it this way: If a computer chooses to create a substance that kills humanity, was that a sin? If a computer makes a mistake that produces a substance that destroys mankind, is that a sin, or is it just tragic? If a computer makes a mistake because the humans, fallen and sinful, that the humans programmed it to do, but the programming was corrupted, did the humans make a sin, or did the computer make a sin? I think those questions are a summary of this massive article, and I think the single most important thing about this article, other than it appears in The New York Times, which is the designated media entity that gets to ask the only questions that matter in the world.

If someone else asks a big question and The Time never picks it up, did it ever happen? It's kind of like a Zen thing.

This is not-- This is a 5,000-plus words

Do the words sin or Eden appear in this very long story in the New York Times? Yeah.

Eden as in the Garden of.

And the answer to both of those is no.

They are implied, though, everywhere.

Put it this way.

If a computer chooses to create a substance that kills humanity, was that a sin? No.

If a computer makes a mistake that produces a substance that destroys mankind, is that a sin or is it just tragic? if a computer makes a mistake because the humans fallen and sinful that the humans programmed it to do but the programming was corrupted did the humans make a sin or did the computer make a sin i think those questions are a summary of this massive article And I think the single most important thing about this article, other than it appears in the New York Times, which is the designated media entity that gets to ask the only questions that matter in the world.

so my second question is really why devote so much space to this story this is not this is a 5 000 plus words

He may not, he may not have the kind of muscle to say, "I want that question included." He may have editors and producers that say, "No, we're gonna cut that question."

Well, I mean, first of all, this was not one interview.

I have not seen the short version that ran on 60 Minutes.

I have only watched the longer version of the interview that has been posted online, so I don't know the differences between the two.

But it's obvious that we have an interview with Clancy, at least one in the same setting.

Then we have another interview with Clancy in which his new wife is present, and then we have another interview where he's back in Massachusetts, where they film some footage related to his family and his time there, and you have that interview sitting out on a park bench in a park where he's done some tributes to his children.

And so we have at least three different interviews here.

And then the, the Patrick Clancy kind of getting to have his say, so to speak, on 60 Minutes.

He may not, he may not have the kind of muscle to say, "I want that question included." He may have editors and producers that say, "No, we're gonna cut that question."

Well, I mean, first of all, this was not one interview.

I have not seen the short version that ran on 60 Minutes.

I have only watched the longer version of the interview that has been posted online.

So I don't know the differences between the two.

But it's obvious that we have an interview with Clancy, at least one in the same setting.

Then we have another interview with Clancy in which his new wife is present, and then we have another interview where he's back in Massachusetts, where they film some footage related to his family and his time there, and you have that interview sitting out on a park bench in a park where he's done some tributes to his children.

And then the, the Patrick Clancy kind of getting to have his say, so to speak, on 60 Minutes.

Any of these people could have been contacted to talk about what is the Trump White House agenda for religious liberty, because that seems pretty assumed in this Washington Post story.

Well, yes, and quite frankly, that commission has done some things that I would say the current president is perhaps uncomfortable with.

And one of the strongest voices in traditional religious liberty fights that used to be on that commission and isn't now would be Another person you could have contacted from this story, and he would understand what it's like to get shot at from both sides.

And that would be one of the greatest legal minds and scholars of our age, which would be Robert George of Princeton, would have been an excellent person to call for the story as well.

But this story really, we find out what he opposes that's going on right now, but we never find out what he still stands for.

And in that sense, he represents kind of a figure that has a similar portrait in the public square as some other people from the world of evangelicalism who have taken their shots.

And the shots are often linked to partisan politics more than they are about their actual beliefs on religious liberty and law.

And that seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle.

Any of these people could have been contacted to talk about what is the Trump White House agenda for religious liberty, because that seems pretty assumed in this Washington Post story.

Well, yes.

And quite frankly, that commission has done some things that I would say the current president is perhaps uncomfortable with.

And one of the strongest voices in traditional religious liberty fights that used to be on that commission and isn't now would be another person you could have contacted from this story, and he would understand what it's like to get shot at from both sides.

And that would be one of the greatest legal minds and scholars of our age, which would be Robert George of Princeton, would have been an excellent person to call for this story as well.

But this story really, we find out what he opposes that's going on right now, but we never find out what he still stands for.

And in that sense, he represents kind of a figure that has a similar portrait in the public square as some other people from the world of evangelicalism who have taken their shots.

And that seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle.

What is the press supposed to do with them?

This has been a topic that has intrigued me for decades now because at the heart of it is a very important journalism issue, and that is what happens when you just quote somebody making a truth claim.

the simple fact of the matter is that journalists have decided that certain types of truth claims are valid and other types of truth claims are not valid and we can see this all over the place and the the basic rule is that if a scientist says it or if lots of scientists say it it's true For example, this was a factor during COVID coverage.

Now that's something far away from discussing miracles, but it's the same basic principle.

you had people who were critical of the vaccines and critical of some of the treatment decisions and the cultural decisions.

But those people didn't represent the official scientific voices that were endorsed by the US government and most importantly by their editors.

And thus one set of statements was taken as true even though there was conflicting scientific evidence in the debates.

what did you find in the new york post piece on this new jersey team

What is the press supposed to do with them?

This has been a topic that has intrigued me for decades now because at the heart of it is a very important journalism issue.

And that is what happens when you just quote somebody making a truth claim.

And the simple fact of the matter is that journalists have decided that certain types of truth claims are valid and other types of truth claims are not valid.

And we can see this all over the place.

And the basic rule is that if a scientist says it, or if lots of scientists say it, it's true.

For example, this was a factor during COVID coverage.

what did you find in the new york post piece on this new jersey team

I read the piece, and I just want to ask, were you a particular fan of hers? Because you seem to be very acquainted with her wording, her lyrics.

Well, remember that I live in the mountains of East Tennessee.

So that is the kingdom of Dolly.

I basically think East Tennessee was not only her home, where she was raised, But several people have made the comment that for Appalachia in general, but especially for East Tennessee, she may as well have been Queen Elizabeth II.

Oh, wow.

I mean, she was just a figure in the culture.

And anything that happened in the culture, she ended up being a part of it.

And do you think that that information you just shared about her, do you think that's the kind of information that most people know? Or at the very least, is this common knowledge? Because it would appear to me at the very least that most people remember the pop songs from her.

He you probably find maybe six pictures of them, all granny pictures from the 60s on the Internet.

Yeah.

And the mystery about that part, that huge chunk of her private life, Carl Dean was his name and he did die a year ago.

If I was going to pick one of my favorite images of Dolly that kind of summed up how complex she was, is on major wedding anniversaries.

I know she said they did this on their 50th, on the 50th wedding anniversary.

They like to jump in their RV, and I imagine it was a nice RV, but it was still an RV, and she would put on like a big scarf wrapped around her head and big sunglasses, and off they would go into America.

with nobody knowing where they were going and what they were going to do.

What did you make of the New York Times coverage?

She was in the spotlight, and he not only shunned it, you probably find maybe six pictures of them, all granny pictures from the 60s on the Internet.

Yeah, and the mystery about that part, that huge chunk of her private life, Carl Dean was his name, and he did die a year ago.

If I was going to pick one of my favorite images of Dolly that kind of summed up how complex she was, is on major wedding anniversaries.

I know she said they did this on their 50th, on the 50th wedding anniversary.

They like to jump in their RV, and I imagine it was a nice RV, but it was still an RV, and she would put on like a big scarf wrapped around her head and big sunglasses, and off they would go into America.

With nobody knowing where they were going and what they were going to do.

It was just the two of them and an RV.

What did you make of the New York Times coverage?

What is missing in this story about some happy wine drinking elderly nuns?

Well, I mean, this is a smiling face on one of the most important stories in Catholic life in the last half century or so.

It'll say in the post Vatican II era.

The statistic which gets quoted over and over related to this is that in 1965, the U.S. Catholic Church had 180,000 religious sisters and nuns, and there were about three women religious for every single U.S. priest.

And today, that number is down to around 35,000. religious sisters.

And as this piece makes clear, most of those are now elderly or an extremely high percentage of those are elderly.

And all of that is accurate.

No, I mean, I got, just got the impression that, that this is what, this is what is happening across all the orders and that these are just, these ladies are just a kind of slice of life.

What is missing in this story about some happy, wine-drinking elderly nuns?

[chuckles] Well, I mean, this is a smiling face on one of the most important stories in Catholic life in the last half-century or so.

Let's say in the post-Vatican II era.

And the statistic which gets quoted over and over related to this is that in 1965, the U.S. Catholic Church had 180,000 religious sisters and nuns, and there were about three women religious for every single U.S. priest.

And today, that number is down to around 35,000 religious sisters, and as this piece makes clear, most of those are now elderly, or an extremely high percentage of those are elderly.

And all of that is accurate.

But there are several things that don't show up in this, this story, and as I read it, I kept saying, first of all, the orders that now have their members in this nursing home, and clearly they fit into this reference in, in The New York Times stories.

No, I mean, I got, just got the impression that, that this is what, this is what is happening across all the orders, and that these are just, these ladies are just a kinda slice of life.

Yeah.

I was going to say at least 50%.

When you're talking about somebody did something, somebody said something, they're a major public figure, it's political ideology.

In fact, I think that if the Associated Press style book, if it had an item defining doctrine, it would be doctrine, noun, there would be a colon or a dash, and then it would say, see political ideology.

when you're dealing with people who are famous and who are making big headlines, at some point it has to be politics because otherwise it's not real because politics is real and religion is not so real.

There's that phrase you and I have been talking about for a long time.

So in my own case, I did not know.

Talk about that use of...

Probably upper 90%.

I was going to say at least 50%.

When you're talking about somebody did something, somebody said something, they're a major public figure, it's political ideology.

In fact, I think that if the Associated Press style book, if it had an item defining doctrine, it would be doctrine, noun, there would be a colon or a dash, and then it would say, see political ideology.

When you're dealing with people who are famous and who are making big headlines, at some point it has to be politics because otherwise it's not real because politics is real and religion is not so real.

There's that phrase you and I have been talking about for a long time.

So in my own case, I did not know, and I have followed this story pretty closely.

Talk about that use of-