shift how did both of you realize that this shift was needed tammy how did you realize that we need to be more partners in the organization and this what you just talked about

So before I started organizational training, though I've always done training for the past 15 years plus, I was doing executive coaching.

And what would happen is, I'm sure all of you who support executives know this, that your executive says, oh, I'm too much in the weeds.

I'm not strategic enough.

I don't have enough time for my strategic activities.

And I would say to them, well, who can you deputize on your team? And more often than not, they would say, I don't have anyone to deputize on my team.

And it's because not that they don't have the subject matter expertise in their area, they didn't have the interpersonal skills of how to navigate the organization, how to get things done.

When you first started working with L&D teams, what surprised you about how they were trying to engage SMEs?