It's very difficult to see how she could remain in the DUP now.

Yeah, look, I think her position as a DUP MP, I think that's only safe for hours rather than days.

I think we're going to hear that Carla Lockhart is heading for the exit door very soon.

She said a First Minister in name only is still a First Minister.

She said that such a move is all duck and no dinner.

And she actually widened the argument with the DUP leadership.

She said she tried to make the case.

That does sound to me, perhaps naively, that she does seem to be closer to the TUV thinking now that she seems to be apologising for her past loyalty to the DUP there.

I mean, you seem to be saying, well, electorally, the people who go out and vote probably do

care.

That's my suspicion.

And certainly if we're looking at the crowds there, if we look at the crowds there, we saw those aerial pictures of Garvahy Road on Saturday.

I think Sinn Féin was saying there were 15,000 people there.

I wouldn't put it at 15,000, but there definitely were thousands there.

Yeah, my hunch, my instinct is that in the nationalist community, people do care.

Why would they do this?

I wouldn't go as far as to say it's self-destructive, but it's just not good.

Well, uh, the, the, the timing is woeful, um, for John Burroughs and the party.

Um, we have a new term starting, um, in Stormont very soon.

Um, John Burroughs will be, um, would've been pleased with himself, very, feeling very positive about where the UUP is, um, in the polls.

In our latest talk poll, it actually became the largest unionist party on 16%, overtaking the DUP on 15%.

That old political pecking order had been shaken up.

Um, the Jeffrey Donaldson scandal is not going to disappear.

Is this a bit of a kick to the s- to s- to the executive itself? Because, you know, there is a bit of chatter here and there that all is not well.

1983 is quite a while ago, so who were Paddy Macken and Eamon McMahon?

They were 34 years of age, both of them.

They were friends, but they weren't lifelong ones.

They had met only three months earlier.

Eamon had given Paddy a job driving a lorry and they became firm friends.

Eamon McMahon dealt in lorries and tractors.

He was from a really big family, a family of 14 in Coloville.

They actually have gone to England and confronted this alleged informer.

As Suzanne, for those who aren't aware of the story about the, uh, Prime Minister's, uh, new, uh, Prime Minister, the new Prime Minister's wife, not the, the Prime Minister's new wife, the, uh, the new Prime Minister's wife, uh, tell us, uh, uh, about what, what has happened.

Well, the new Prime Minister's wife is Marie-France van Heel, and she appeared with him a week ago, um, when he became Prime Minister, got the keys to Downing Street.

She was with him, as, as is normal, that the spouse of the Prime Minister accompanies them, um, as, as, as they, um, move into to their new home.

But she met an online firing squad.

The knives were out, um, for her, and every inch of her body, everything that she was wearing, it was put under a microscope.

She was treated like a piece of meat on a fashion critique shopping board, and it, it, it was just so different.

Men in public eye are not criticized that way.

But does that make you particularly depressed? I mean, you mentioned the, uh, the former BBC radio DJ.

That's according to the latest Belfast Telegraph Lucid Talk polling.

It was always going to be a question of them going down.

It was just really a question over how much they're down.

The dramatic fall in backing for the party comes in the wake of former leader Jeffrey Donaldson's conviction for child sex offences.

This story isn't going to go away for the DUP and I think that that is the problem.

Jeffrey Donaldson will be sentenced in September, then there will be an appeal, that'll keep him in the headlines.

Sinn Féin and the Alliance Party have also seen a drop in their support.

But f- four in 10 DUP voters, according to our LucidTalk polling, do not believe that the party has been fully honest about what it knew of his double life, and that's what it was.

Uh, c- could that be emblematic perhaps of, um, something more than just the way he conducted himself over the weeks of the trial? Um, is, is that potentially insightful into what was going on inside his head, do you think?

I think that it probably was in, in the, in the courtroom.

Um, there had to be a show, but in the corridors outside it and in other private spaces, he was a very different man.

Um, I knew him, like, well, not, not, not as well as Garth, but I knew him, um, from my 35 years as a journalist, um, from his days in the Ulster Unionist Party and his long battles with David Trimble.

He was much more media-friendly, much more accessible, um, to journalists than David Trimble was.

Um, he was easy to deal with.

I, I, I noticed his, his quotes when he, he was speaking to you were always perfect.

But I wonder, do you think there is potential fallout for the party he once led?

But clearly, some DUP members feel that they have been fooled by him.

Well, one person that I spoke to had traveled regularly with Jeffrey abroad, and he said that the joke was that Jeffrey spent more time with him, with this man, than he did with Eleanor, his wife, that Eleanor was effectively a widow.

They traveled to South Africa and to Namibia together, and this person said while he never saw Jeffrey look at another woman once when he was away, a drink was rarely out of his hand, whereas Jeffrey wouldn't touch a drop in Northern Ireland.

This person explained that when they go to a foreign country, and they would call in on British and Irish embassies, which would be housed in these palatial mansions, that there would be, you know, free drink for hours and hours.

This person never availed of it, but he painted very vivid scenes of Jeffrey drinking like a fish, the irony being that he wore the little Christian symbol of a fish in his lapel, but it was drinking like a fish that this person remembered him.

He talked about one hotel in Namibia where a tribal chief had arrived to see Jeffrey, and the drink was flowing.

When you ask people in the DUP about Eleanor, nobody really saw her a lot.

How could they not? Is this a problem for the DUP? Is this a problem for unionism, or is this just a part of life that, an unfortunate part of life that they could have no control over, that c- they can't be blamed for?

When he joined the DUP, he went through the ranks pretty quickly, didn't he? Because he developed this reputation as a great policymaker and a person who was a strong media performer.

Geoffrey didn't actually rise through DUP ranks as quickly as I thought he would.

He joined the party with Arlene Foster but she was liked much more by DUP grassroots.

They really took to her.

She's a very warm personality so it It was Arlene that became leader first.

Geoffrey Donaldson had to choose.

There was a rule on double jobbing came in.

One of the victims testified about the deep cognitive dissonance that they experienced watching their abuser receive all of this public accolades while framing himself as a spiritually guided individual because his religious beliefs seem to factor into his life and his public image and actually ultimately in his trial in different ways.

But clearly some DUP members feel that they have been fooled by him.

Well, one person that I spoke to had traveled regularly with Jeffrey abroad, and he said that the joke was that Jeffrey spent more time with him, with this man, than he did with Eleanor, his wife, that Eleanor was effectively a widow.

They traveled to South Africa and to Namibia together, and this person said while he never saw Jeffrey look at another woman once when he was away, a drink was rarely out of his hand, whereas Jeffrey wouldn't touch a drop in Northern Ireland.

This person explained that when they go to a foreign country and they would call in on British and Irish embassies, which would be housed in these palatial mansions, that there would be, you know, free drink for hours and hours.

Th- this person never availed of it, but he painted very vivid scenes of Jeffrey drinking like a fish.

The irony being that he wore the little Christian symbol of a fish in his lapel, but it was drinking like a fish that this person remembered him.

He talked about one hotel in Namibia where a tribal chief had arrived to see Jeffrey, and the drink was flowing.

How could they not? Is this a problem for the DUP? Is this a problem for unionism, or is this just a part of life that, an unfortunate part of life that they could have no control over, that they can't be blamed for?

But clearly, some DUP members feel that they have been fooled by him.

Well, one person that I spoke to had traveled regularly with Jeffrey abroad, and he said that the joke was that Jeffrey spent more time with him, with this man, than he did with Eleanor, his wife, that Eleanor was effectively a widow.

They traveled to South Africa and to Namibia together, and this person said while he never saw Jeffrey look at another woman once when he was away, a drink was rarely out of his hand, whereas Jeffrey wouldn't touch a drop in Northern Ireland.

This person explained that when they go to a foreign country and they would call in on British and Irish embassies, which would be housed in these palatial mansions, that there would be, you know, free drink for hours and hours.

Th- this person never availed of it, but he painted very vivid things of Jeffrey drinking like a fish, the irony being that he wore the little Christian symbol of a fish on his lapel, but it was drinking like a fish that this person remembered him.

He talked about one hotel in Namibia where a tribal chief had arrived to see Jeffrey, and the drink was flowing.

When you ask people in the DUP about Eleanor, nobody really saw her a lot.

How could they not? Is this a problem for the DUP? Is this a problem for unionism, or is this just a part of life that, an unfortunate part of life that they could have no control over, th- they can't be blamed for?

But clearly, some DUP members feel that they have been fooled by him.

Well, one person that I spoke to had traveled regularly with Jeffrey abroad, and he said that the joke was that Jeffrey spent more time with him, with this man, than he did with Eleanor, his wife, that Eleanor was effectively a widow.

They traveled to South Africa and to Namibia together, and this person said while he never saw Jeffrey look at another woman once when he was away, a drink was rarely out of his hand, whereas Jeffrey wouldn't touch a drop in Northern Ireland.

This person explained that when they go to a foreign country, and they would call in on British and Irish embassies, which would be housed in these palatial mansions, that there would be, you know, free drink for hours and hours.

Th- this person never availed of it, but he painted very vivid scenes of Jeffrey drinking like a fish.

The irony being that he wore the little Christian symbol of a fish in his lapel, but it was drinking like a fish that this person remembered him.

He talked about one hotel in Namibia where a tribal chief had arrived to see Jeffrey, and the drink was flowing.

How could they not? Is this a problem for the DUP? Is this a problem for unionism, or is this just a part of life that, an unfortunate part of life that they could have no control over, th- that they can't be blamed for?

I, I mean, is it just that there's a new sheriff in town, and the old sheriff can't put up with that?

I think that is definitely part of it.

Doug Beattie left as UUP leader after three years in very disputed and acrimonious circumstances.

I feel that he believed that as leader, he had definitely lots more left in the tank.

He would love to have continued.

I think he, he wouldn't have minded a second go at the job at all, but that wasn't to be.

I, I think you couldn't put a cigarette paper in between the two on the vast majority of policies.

So could he actually find himself in bother at a certain stage? It's just not sustainable to, to continue on without the su- the support of your MLAs.

His profile's been low, though, compared to what it has been in the past.

His profile has been absolutely low, and I think he, um, you know, I think he's keen to go.

I, I, I think his, his family probably want him to, to spend more, more time with them, um, as well.

Um, it's totally different for Edwin Poots.

Edwin Poots and Gerry Kelly were the or- original members, as, as, as you said, of the Assembly.

But Edwin Poots is 61 years of age, so, um, he is keen to continue his Stormont career.

Um, he has constituency hopped a little bit himself, originally in Lagan Valley.

Suzanne, what's sort of top of your list for the kind of seat we need to be keeping a close eye on because there are potential swings one way or the other?

And in fairness to Edwin Poots, he did seem to have that support.

So it's a tiny number, Ciaran.

It's, I think there were 28 MLAs at the time and eight MPs.

And the public were maybe more familiar with the MPs because, you know, there were some of the big beasts there.

They had very high profile.

A lot, a lot of people mightn't have known the names of, of some MLAs, but it was the MLAs who held the most votes, and they were really, really important here.

Other parties are a little bit more democratic in how they choose their leader, and the Ulster Unionists in particular are very, very democratic, which has hurt the party sometimes in the past.

What challenges do, does the party face?

Edwin Poots managed to get his ducks in a row in terms of wresting power away from Arlene Foster into his own hands, but then he didn't actually have the skills that were required to use the power that he had got for himself, and it, it just started falling, uh, apart straight away.

Look, he, he had the opposite of the political Midas touch.

Um, everything he touched turned to ashes.

It was always going to be hard because of the narrowness of that vote.

1917, one vote, um, different could've changed the outcome.

And also, the Donaldson side were much cuter, much more wilier operators, I think, than the Poots crew.

Um, I remember watching, I th- think it was Paul Given, Ian Paisley, and Johnny Buckley strolling down the street to party headquarters after Edwin had won, and I think some of them were punching the air.

But w- just briefly before we hear from Tim Cairns again, where do you think that period, that dramatic period that we've just been talking about in the DUP's history, has left the party today?

Uh, do you think that's connected just to the, uh, the lack of enthusiasm for the assembly, maybe?

Look, Sinn Féin supporters will say, and have said, "1%, what's that?" But Sinn Féin is slipping in almost every poll that we've conducted, and if you go back to two years ago, when the executive was formed after devolution being b- being down for a period, Sinn Féin at that point was on 31% in the polls.

So it's 24% now.

That's a seven-point drop.

That is significant.

And I think when Michelle O'Neill became the first ever nationalist first minister, that was pushed very heavily by the party.

The r- It was going to represent real change.

Does Gerry Adams' denial, does it keep the story alive?