But I guess I guess I'm wondering, from your perspective, what are the main things that video games kind of teach people or what are the pro-social activities that, you know, you believe come out of, excuse me, come out of events like this that that that that the industry could do better at and they're trying to convey can come across from? uh from playing more games and experiencing them together as a family whatever

yeah so um i think the the industry knows it like the industry knows how games are a you know one of the only forms of media that allows this kind of interactivity right and with that kind of an interactivity players are developing a different relationship with the content and their and with others if they're doing it in a multi the player setting what i think the challenge is people out in the world are looking at it that way, right? So if there's a question of what we can do better, a lot of it is messaging and communication and drawing attention to the positive impacts of gaming.

And what I really mean in that sense, in this question is even the most commercial games have benefits.

Even though they're not designed as an impact game, they have impact.

One, they're bringing joy to people who play it.

They may be relieving stress after a long day.

It's offering a pathway for connection, human connection.

I guess if you agree or disagree, whichever it is, is there a particular part of the connection between education or training or kind of the way the onboarding process in video games where you've seen a connection and you're seeking to stress that? Or is that me reading into how you're going to set this one up?

I mean, you, no doubt you've had other experiences that have sort of shortened that distance for you as well.

Yeah.

I mean, one interesting thing about, um-Immersive experience or virtual reality experiences, well, is the, is the, the fa- the, the virtue of them being immersive.

You see...

You know, you're in an ex- you, you are otherwise, you know, in a virtual space, but your perception is that you are in a, you know, 360, you know, um, uh, environment.

Theater can do the same thing, and it's...

And I, I remember around the same time Clouds of Sijju came out, um, there was a theater piece that I saw in London called The Jungle, and it references, uh, the refugee camp in France called Calais.

Are there other, like, moments or projects from the kind of professional life you lead that really stand out as being powerful, um, for refugees, for forced displacement, and for the work of UNHCR?