Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

So I don't think that the sororities are fine, the frats aren't, is an answer.

I think that the Greek life becoming co-ed is a really interesting answer.

I think that's what the Wesleyan...

Yeah, Michael Roth just wrote a really interesting op-ed for The Times in which I think that you can kind of read between the lines and see how he navigated this problem where the fraternities are kind of institutions that have power in and of themselves.

to being a central social influence in that space.

So- many many factors that are different now and things did go underground but you had to really actually invest too in the students you had to be like okay if we get rid of this thing how are we investing in the students in order to make this a place that they want to be and like that requires a lot asking a lot of questions instead of outsourcing your college culture to these organizations you need to be like oh what is our college culture what do we want it to be and um I think maybe the colleges aren't really used to asking themselves that question.

Pretty straightforward.

The funny thing is you loved Greek life.

I loved the culture for a time.

I still loved it.

When I go back, I like to play a game of pong.

I had pong tables at my wedding outdoors with my friends.

Like, it was fun.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

So I don't think that the sororities are fine, the frats aren't, is an answer.

I think that the Greek life becoming co-ed is a really interesting answer.

I think that's what the Wesleyan...

Yeah, Michael Roth just wrote a really interesting op-ed for The Times in which I think that you can kind of read between the lines and see how he navigated this problem where the fraternities are kind of institutions that have power in and of themselves.

to being a central social influence in that space.

that question.

So I want to start by asking, why did you want to make this series, and why Neil Gorsuch, and why now?

Longtime listeners of Slow Burn will know that the eighth season was called Slow Burn: Becoming Justice Thomas, and that was a look obviously at the rise of Clarence Thomas.

And ever since we did that series, I had thought Slow Burn really needs to spin off and do each of the other justices, because when we did Clarence Thomas, it was like all of these things about him and his total strangeness on the bench just clicked into place.

And I think that one of the things that I've learned definitely from watching you and Mark work is that there is a little bit of the palace intrigue of watching these people, but understanding who these people actually are is quite important.

They have so much influence on our lives, and we just look at them as, like, the Court, they're neutral.

They wear the black robes.

They're just these bodies who are ingesting law and spitting something out.

Give me guidance.

So I want to start by asking, why did you want to make this series? And why Neil Gorsuch? And why now?

Longtime listeners of Slow Burn will know that the eighth season was called Slow Burn Becoming Justice Thomas.

And that was a look, obviously, at the rise of Clarence Thomas.

And Ever since we did that series, I had thought Slowburn really needs to spin off and do each of the other justices because when we did Clarence Thomas, it was like all of these things about him and his total strangeness on the bench just clicked into place.

And I think that one of the things that I've learned definitely from watching you and Mark work is that there is a little bit of the palace intrigue of watching these people.

But understanding who these people actually are is quite important.

They have so much influence on our lives.

It's civility for

So I want to start by asking, why did you want to make this series, and why Neil Gorsuch, and why now?

Longtime listeners of Slow Burn will know that the eighth season was called Slow Burn: Becoming Justice Thomas, and that was a look obviously at the rise of Clarence Thomas.

And ever since we did that series, I have thought Slow Burn really needs to spin off and do each of the other justices, because when we did Clarence Thomas, it was like all of these things about him and his total strangeness on the bench just clicked into place.

And I think that one of the things that I've learned definitely from watching you and Mark work is that there is a little bit of the palace intrigue of watching these people, but understanding who these people actually are is quite important.

They have so much influence on our lives, and we just look at them as, like, the Court, they're neutral, they wear the black robes, they're just these bodies who are ingesting law and spitting something out.

And I think listeners of this show are aware [chuckles] that that is not the case.

But from when we did Justice Thomas, I really wanted to move on and do everybody else on the bench.

Give me guidance.

But remind us what happened to his mother, Anne Gorsuch Bur- Burford, that, that, that greatly shaped her son's judicial philosophy, uh, in some, in some critics' views.

Yeah, certainly.

So Anne Gorsuch Burford, she says that she's practicing Reaganism before Reagan.

She eventually goes to Washington when Neil is just 15 years old, and she's appointed the head of the EPA.

She asks for the job not because she loves the environment.

She asks for the job because the EPA is new at the time, and she thinks that the person who runs it will have a lot of power.

So she gets in charge, and she starts slashing the budget and firing people and replacing them with people within the industry.

How do you, how do you think about that statement, uh, and reconcile it with what you've learned about him in the course of your reporting?

So like, why do Neil Gorsuch like why focus on him?

The reason for that is because the moment where Neil Gorsuch ascends to the Supreme Court is in fact the moment that the court is basically broken and also takes on this new valence of power in our government.

And by that I mean...

You might remember Brett Kavanaugh's nomination, which was extremely contentious.

You might remember Amy Coney Barrett replacing Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

But what happens with Neil Gorsuch is that he's the one that takes the seat that had been Antonin Scalia's.

And Scalia had died when Barack Obama was still president.

Like, so he's this pivotal figure, but is he like interesting in

So, like, why do Neil Gorsuch? Like, why focus on him?

The reason for that is because the moment where Neil Gorsuch ascends to the Supreme Court is in fact the moment that the Court is basically broken and also takes on this new valence of power in our government.

And by that I mean, you might remember Brett Kavanaugh's nomination, which was extremely contentious.

You might remember Amy Coney Barrett replacing Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

But what happens with Neil Gorsuch is that he's the one that takes the seat that had been Antonin Scalia's, and Scalia had died when Barack Obama was still president.

Obama tries to nominate Merrick Garland, and Republicans just stonewall, stonewall, stonewall for months and months and months until the election, until Trump is elected the first time.

And Neil Gorsuch is the one that takes that seat, and that is a huge shift in the power dynamics for the Supreme Court.

So, like, what is he a wild card about?