[laughs]

Um, but, um, as a, an athlete, as a young person, and just loved all sport and, uh, did my first degree in human movement studies, taught physical education and, and during this time period was learning about a field called sports psychology.

So we're talking early '80s at this point.

And, uh, at that time, uh, um, North America was definitely, uh, a leader in, in the academic side of sports psychology, and I decided, uh, that I would study further.

So I explored options, uh, ended up at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign for my master's.

It was a, a hub of, um, academic, um, interest and high-quality research, and in sports psychology I was really, really fortunate to land in the corn fields literally, um, which was a bit of a [laughs] surprise.

But, um, [laughs] having grown up in Sydney and, um, Australia.

... of both optimal performance and, and flow.

So way back, when did you meet Mihai, aka Mike?

I met him first through some phone and letter correspondence because this was in the mid-late 1980s.

I was studying at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

I was studying a master's in sports psychology at that time and I stumbled across the first book that Chicks at Me High had written on a library shelf and I was just intrigued by the title of the book, which was Beyond Boredom and Anxiety.

I was like, oh.

well, that's interesting.

My curiosity was, was peaked like, well, what's beyond boredom and anxiety then? And so I picked the book up, checked it out.

That'd be