So how do you explain the distinction between governance and management in a way every board member can understand?

So if you look at the role of we'll talk about the role of the board as a unit and the role of that leadership team as a unit.

most of the board's role is going to be shared with the CEO or maybe the whole leadership team.

When you talk about strategy, there's some mindset that the board sets the strategy and then the leadership team executes on it.

I don't prescribe to that, either when I was a CEO or in my coaching, because just like in the business world, that CEO or ED really needs to play a pivotal role in creation.

So strategy creation should be a partnership.

execution should be, especially if it's a mature, bigger nonprofit on the leadership team and their staff, there might be things parsed out like in fundraising, the board will play a role.

But is there a process that you recommend organizations take to kind of repair trust to get themselves back into alignment?