So what was the company like?

We had these wonderful offices in, in Marylebone in central London, and it was kind of late '90s, early 2000s, so you'd go out and get your lunch at the local sandwich shop, and walking past Madonna and Noel Gallagher and all sorts.

It was a real sense of optimism still.

You know, h- technology had so far really been quite complex, and especially mobile phones, quite a complex issue for consumers.

We were very much about making it consumer-friendly and really opening up the technology to the mass market.

Make sure that everything we did was moving away from technology and talking to customers in a real human language.

Does, does that sort of mean despite all the innovations we're hearing around the brand, there were some issues around the technology?

Yeah, certainly the vision that we had, I think, outpaced the ability of the technology at the time, and 3G promised a lot and actually didn't have that mass breakthrough moment that we, we were all expecting and hoping for.