But I'm wondering, like, did surveillance... take that arc as well in terms of, like, becoming this kind of intangible, like, abstract thing? Or, I mean, the communities that you organize, has it always been what it feels like it is now, which is this, like, lightning rod of political interest and engagement?

It's interesting with surveillance is that there were, in many of the communities we were organizing in, you know, we have groups that were fighting body-worn cameras and facial recognition technology as far back as 2012, 2011.

One of the things that happened there is obviously the Edward Snowden leaks happened, I think, in 2013.

And surveillance and mass surveillance in particular became this massive conversation.

So I think the lesson in that is that the history shows us that when political conditions are fraught, you will have these opportunities in these moments of mass appeal.

Now, what we do with that mass appeal, how that energy is captured is the real question.

It's the organizing challenge.

action committees or PACs,