I- is, do you have a nice neat way of encapsulating just how big the South African corruption problem is? Who, who can hang on to one tri- one trillion rand? I can't.

Absolutely.

It's a massive problem, John.

And, you know, government spends a trillion rand each year on goods, services, and infrastructure across many departments, provinces, municipalities.

We've got more than 250 municipalities in the country, and the governance in many of these municipalities and government departments is just not what it should be.

And so what you've got is a whole lot of dishonest business people who treat government tenders as a shortca- shortcut to instant wealth.

And the problem just seems to be getting much, much worse, and the things coming out of the Mdlungu Commission shows that, you know, we've got corruption at the highest levels in the police force.

... had been properly functional, properly staffed, properly led, then would we still need this separate, yet another institution?

What's your background that got you to this stage with your military and law enforcement?

You know, I, um, [laughs] I, I, I feel as though that my background was extremely diverse, but yet a lot of it was pretty routine.

So in the U...

Like, I wasn't a Navy SEAL.

I wasn't a Green Beret.

I was an Air Force cop who became an Air Force investigator, and in my tenure in the Air Force, I was able to get a lot of specialized training, which gave me a leg up.

And it's not crazy training, but I mean, I got to go to the FBI Academy and train.

[laughs]

Quite harder to say, these are the outcomes that you wanted and we've done that.

It is a lot harder, and we've got to demonstrate this through getting convictions in criminal courts.

We need to put perpetrators behind bars.

But I think there are just indications of some positive actions that are taking place.

With the Madlanga Commission, we've heard revelations of large-scale corruption and even sabotage of the criminal justice system.

But what we saw just in the last couple of days with the asset forfeiture unit, forfeiture order that was granted by the court against the Momela syndicate implicated in that Tembisa hospital looting scandal, those are the types of success stories that we've got to demonstrate to the FATF.

This is phenomenal because we've seen six luxury properties, three Lamborghinis, a Bentley Continental, and a luxury boat all forfeited to the state.

And in fact, I think the argument against it would have some merit, which would be to say you cannot say people have to be convicted to please the Financial Action Task Force.

I just want to ask you, what do you believe around the rapture of the church?

Yeah, to be honest with you, I'm kind of...

Kind of between beliefs on that right now.

I'm still working that out.

I know that's not the best answer, the most direct answer.

I grew up in a Pentecostal church, which is very much pre-tribulation, pre-millennial, pre-tribulation, dispensationalist.

But as I've explored more of the other eschatological views, I think I find myself most now at just a premillennial, not dispensational, but historic premillennial.

because what she experienced was real to her

Does the Curator Bonies continue to take on the task of disposing of those assets at the best possible price?

That's exactly right, John.

And it becomes quite challenging.

I remember years ago, I seized the assets on behalf of the state in the road accident fund matter with two attorneys that were accused of defrauding road accident victims of the settlements that were granted by the road accident fund.

And there we had to operate businesses where the two individuals had established businesses using the proceeds of crime.

And literally, the curator bonus steps into the shoes of the two accused and has to manage and make sure that those assets don't devalue.

And I remember when we paid the proceeds over, we recovered several million rand.

So those are just some of, I suppose, the difficult things you have to do as part of your job.

What are you seeing? What is helping and what's working?

I think giving them a clear menu before they get engaged helps us along the pathway.

Because first and foremost, people need to understand that we have a core focus on the group mentoring.

So group mentoring is a lot different than one-to-one mentoring.

And it's not that our affiliate leaders don't deploy to organizations that are doing one-to-one mentoring, but the programming, the group mentoring, the programming that we're doing at our own sites is group mentoring.

So the time commitment and the way that people participate It's going to be significantly different.

It's place-based, number one, and then you can do it as teams.

So I guess