Mm-hmm.

It's not like I was making money.

Everybody in the Sil- in Silicon Valley during the '90s were making tons of money, right? But we were doing, um, we were doing really, really cool, uh, work for, um, CAD work and industrial design and, and sketching.

I was working with, um, tools that industrial...

You know, if you talk to any older s- industrial designers, the f- hands down best creative tool for, you know, basic CAD was Ashlar-Vellum.

I don't know if anybody knows what that is.

The really older guys will know, and they will chuckle probably when they're listening to this.

Um, so looking forward, what's the next big bet that you're making right now, and why do you believe it'll pay off?