If you think about the type of shock that was potentially, that was created in the short term and could be really with devastating impact if it stayed for longer.

Very true.

And it takes me back to what we were talking about earlier, which is what conditions are needed to support such high levels of debt and such heavy debt service burdens, right? So when you think about fiscal sustainability, it kind of depends on whether governments can service their obligations without distress and debt service capacity, rollover risk, investor demand signals.

And it's that last point, investor demand signals, that aren't really changing.

I mean, overall demand for high quality government bonds and specifically U.S. Treasuries remains very high.

And I think the market attention is shifting away from absolute debt levels like, oh, U.S. government debt, 125% GDP.

That's, you know, frightening, but to the broader environment.

But in our conversation about the world, it's actually emerging markets seem to do, according to your global debt monitor, they seem to do quite well.

So I turned to today's final guest.

I'm Sonia Gibbs, Managing Director and Head of Sustainable Finance, Global Markets and Policy at the IIF, the Institute of International Finance.

We're a Washington, D.C.-based think tank and global trade association.

You wouldn't think that defense finance could fall under the heading of sustainable or responsible investment, but, you know, it's time to be thinking again.

Even if you leave aside the US-ESG backlash, and by the way, I think that's increasingly old news, let's just go back to fundamentals on what we mean by E, S, and G.

Defense falls absolutely squarely into the realm of the S, given it's got both social and societal dimensions.

As we all know, the geopolitical landscape has changed utterly over the past few years.

And I'd love to just understand a little bit more about what you're hearing from your different stakeholders and in the different conversations that you have all around the world.

What key dynamics are you seeing out of China relative to the energy transition?

Well, China is such a, a major player, obviously, in climate finance in their own specific way, right? They're a top renewable energy investor.

They provide climate-related finance to a whole range of emerging and developing economies.

I'm not sure how well-known this is, but something like 3 to 4 billion a year at last count, and a lot of it's in sort of areas like infrastructure, you know, resilient infrastructure.

And obviously, China's got one of the blue-- its biggest green bond markets, so like 500 billion US dollars, and a lot of this is policy-driven, I think, given the government's mandate to green the financial system and obviously decarbonize the economy.

I notice we've got a conference next week actually in Beijing with the Asian Infrastructure Development Bank, so resilient infrastructure is part of that, but also biodiversity.

That seems to be an interesting element of the mix for China right now.

Yeah.