that's, I think, what gets lost sometimes in politics is that the whole reason we have this system is so we can meet people's needs.

Such a good point.

Yeah, Wiseman is really, I think one of the filmmakers responsible for my own lifelong commitment to documentary film.

I just adore the worlds that he invites us to enter into and the idea that he is revealing the hidden architecture of an institution, and over time, piece by piece, making it visible.

When we think about the welfare system, either it's reduced, as you described, to this kind of bold, partisan, 30,000-foot view, headlines, or it feels impossible to hold.

It's so multifaceted.

There's so many different things that are happening within these spaces.

I'm so