And, and Sherman, 'cause you can speak from both RMIT and Macquarie.

I, I can, absolutely.

And, um, I'll, I'll pick up your gesture there, Judith, and say, yes, at Macquarie, we absolutely embedded WIL in, um, everything we did.

Um, and the PACE program there, uh, really took on those challenges that you spoke about, Stephen, taking, taking programs that perhaps were not traditionally WIL, uh, and finding a way to ensure that there was, uh, a WIL experience for all of our students at Macquarie.

Um, I guess, um, I'll, I'll expand the conversation a little bit because here at RMIT, WIL is absolutely part of what we, we do.

Um, but we, we take an approach that it's just one part of our pedagogical approach, and, and we have this, uh, people have coined it the triple A pedagogy, which is around, um, active, authentic, and applied learning.

Um, and of course, WIL is a part of that, but we try and ensure that, uh, all the learning activities that our, our students engage with, uh, are part of that approach.

So how do we get that conversation so it's a three-way conversation, and it's, it's actually an agentic conversation, to use the language of Ruth? So what, you know, what advice would you give?