And there's absolutely...

I MEAN, IT'S A JUGGERNAUT AND IT'S A TESTAMENT TO THEIR TALENTS.

LOOK AT THIS GUY.

HOWEVER,

HOWEVER, UNLESS YOU CAN DUNK A BASKETBALL OR PLAY GUITAR, I'M NOT GOING TO MADISON SQUARE GARDEN.

It's banter and it's like we were driving down here.

Carl, my friend Carl Radke.

Yeah.

Summer House started a year after us, and we started a year before Vanderpump, I think, was a year older than us.

Okay.

And so credit to Bravo and the people who created those shows.

Obviously, we've all been to school, and we have these friend groups, but I don't think any of them have been displayed quite like ours and Vanderpump and in Summer House.

you know, it

after us, and

we started a year before Vanderpump, I think, was a year older than us.

Okay.

And so credit to Bravo and the people who created those shows.

Obviously, we've all been to school, and we have these friend groups, but I don't think any of them have been displayed quite like ours and Vanderpump and in Summer House.

Yeah.

And Carl paid me a very nice compliment a little while ago.

Do you see yourself as, like, a peacemaker between those two, or you just kind of let them? It goes

It's banter and it's like we were driving down here.

Carl, my friend Carl Radke.

Yeah.

Summer House started a year after us, and we started a year before Vanderpump, I think, was a year older than us.

Okay.

And so credit to Bravo and the people who created those shows.

Obviously, we've all been to school, and we have these friend groups, but I don't think any of them have been displayed quite like ours and Vanderpump and in Summer House.

you know, it just is a part

Yeah

... you know? But then there's this deep underlying respect for what we've accomplished on the show, and for how we are the original odd couple or-

[laughs]

... iteration of the odd couple.

So we understand that the audience and our fans love...

There's Team Craig, Team Shep, not that we even pay attention to that, but it's just, it's, it's worked well together.

If you talk about why you wrote it and what it's about and the journey that you took, I would love to hear that story because you're going to be talking about a little bit more later today with some fans here at the mall as well.

So, yeah, I mean, the show... came along when I was 33 years old.

And it happened to come along during a time where I was, well, I went to business school at Vanderbilt, and I had a job that was lined up in Dubai.

And then the financial crisis of 2008 happened.

All of a sudden, I had a business degree, which didn't mean a whole hell of a lot at that time.

I mean, people were really running for cover to keep their jobs, especially in the business world and finance.

and real estate development, things that I was studying.

Who would benefit most from reading your book? Who do you think your audience is? Who would gain insights from

Is this something that you continue to do? Like, do you have to go back for, like, a little top-up, or is this, like, just a spiritual journey that you go on for the rest of your life? How does this-

Hell no. Yeah, I mean, the, the place where I went, Rythmia, is, um, there-- Some of the board members you would un- you would real- recognize.

I mean, um, and, and, uh, there's been some, a lot of people that come through and they've, and I, they, they don't recommend any...

I mean, they're, they're like, "Come if you want." But, um, people that I, I think it's once a year, once every couple years, you go in and you sort of lay it all out on the table at least, um, internally, and then you hopefully walk away with some insights and some maybe new paths to walk.

I, I-- They, they said, "Oh, okay, y- you know, you had a great week, everybody, hopefully, and, but now you go back into the, your real world, so to speak, and you have to..." It's called integration.

And, um, I probably didn't take it as seriously and I, I, I wanna try to do that.

Uh, so I, yes, I'm going back is the short answer, um, here in a few months, I think.

Did you speak to anybody else that was there on the retreat with you about the fact that you were going to write a book? Like, are there names in it that are real names, or have you allowed for anonymity?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I just, I, I have a lot of experience with [laughs] psychedelics, so I was able to sort of understand that everything's gonna be okay, and to really sort of let it happen, surrender, as they say, and sort of ah- make leaps of logic, connect the dots.

And it's probably something that...

For example, the s- the shaman one night, there's different shamans every night.

This, uh, woman, she's tiny little thing.

Uh, I, I, I nicknamed her Esmeralda.

That's great.

What would your advice be to yourself going into your first ever season now that you've got a few under your belt?

I wouldn't change a thing.

Really? Yeah, I really wouldn't.

And it was such an interesting learning curve and a special time in our lives.

We didn't know what we were doing.

We were so green.

Mine

oh my God,

We're proud of our show and our team and-

It constantly surprises me that, that there's still meat left on the bone.

... that it's, it's... you can't show everything, so.

One time I said something uncomplimentary about somebody, and then that person totally validated it, but they cut the validation.

Wh- where did you find yourself in that camp? Were you, was there the addiction or you were just living too hard?

It's funny, I've got a couple friends in recovery.

More than a couple, more than a couple.

And it, it's interesting, I talk to them about that and I say, you know, I know a little bit about, um, obviously I know a lot about their, uh, struggles.

And, um, you know, their life was falling apart, whether it be a marriage or a career.

And a lot of the times, um, pills as, including op- you know, opioids or you hear horror stories and s- I, I've heard them and I've, I've, I've experienced them.

And, um, yeah, I mean, I had one of my fr- And, and you know what's funny is, is that our previous generation, our parents and they, you never, nobody went to rehab.

Sure are

and all that

stuff.

But they really take care of you.

They've done it before many, many, many, many times.

So they know how to get you ready and all the questions to ask and to answers of them.

Anyway, so I went there and I was totally fish out of water.

And I love that for myself because I become a child essentially.

when you get there, you just- Yeah, two days of prep,

Has it been two years since your Ayahuasca experience?

Yeah, it's been a while.

I, you know, it...

There's moments where I revert back, and I, I, I'm hard on myself, and I also try to forgive myself at the same time.

But I think the number-one thing is just being empathy, empathy, showing empathy, giving empathy [laughs] um, grace, as they say.

Um, that was a big part of my experience down in, uh, Costa Rica.

I just, I was very taken aback and inspired and also, um, felt a lot of pain and trauma from other- from those around me and got to thinking how good I've got it.

Yeah.

What just happened? All new America's Got Talent with Terry, Mel B, Simon, Sofia, and Howie.

America's not only got talent, America's got heart and humanity.

Right

... it's ayahuasca, which is the only hallucinogen you're apparently, uh, scared of, you told me.

[laughs]

... right now, but, um, we are, um, she is back amongst, um, her old friends from the show, including obviously me as Little More Than Friends, and I'm overjoyed to have her, and we are communicating, and we're friendly and light and fun, and I I'm just overjoyed about it.

Um, have you talked with or hung out recently with Kathryn and/or Thomas?

I was on a t- uh, Thomas ran into an old friend of mine who used to be his neighbor, and he took a picture and sent it to me, and I, I got, I guess, Thomas' new number, and we were, we were laughing about a couple little things.

So, uh, Kathryn, not so much.

I hope she's doing fine.

[beep]

I talk about that in the book.

You know? I s- I s- uh, before I went to do ayahuasca, I, I was on, uh, the reunion show with Andy Cohen and all my castmates, and I d- I just kind of stood up and asked for a moment, and I just said it, you know Guys, I've, I'm, I'm reached a sort of a moment where I'm, I'm sort of scared, you know? And, um, I said, "But the thing is, my whole life, my idols are, are people who didn't ask permission or forgiveness," you know?

That's white-knuckling sobriety.

Hell yeah, dude.

But, uh, I, I then, no, I started to, to...

And you're supposed to, like, integrate and, uh, meaning you, you go back into the world and really work on it, and I, I, I, I really regret not being more as- astute at that.

And that's why when my- when I return I'm gonna really, uh, like, look into that.

Yeah.

And so, so, um, we're at the gate, and the, the, the captain, y- you know, comes out of the thing, and, uh, they're yelling at e- like, the, the staff.

[laughs] Like, "Uh, get on the plane." I was like, oh no, this doesn't feel good.

So, uh, the captain comes out as, like, "Here's the deal.

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

It's not looking so great." And these girls, uh, were there, and we kinda had, like, nodded at each other, uh, b- briefly, and they were...

I was like, "W- uh, who are you?" And they were like, "Well, we're, we're from South Georgia.

Yeah.

yeah,

yeah.

I hooked a decent rainbow, and the guy goes, a bear sort of walks up.

He goes, snap it off, dude.

I was like, but, but, but.

No buts.

Snap it off.

I love it.

[laughs]

They were granted this land by King George III in England before we decided to rebel.

Go get 'em.

Tie it

... keep it tight and keep it back.

It, it, it, it's an absolute insane, like, couple seconds, right? And I hooked a permit in Cuba and it got off, and I'll never forgive myself.

I'll give you a sneak peek that I'd wrote a book.

It's, uh, about my experience with ayahuasca.

... or do you agree with Charlie that it was not enough?"

Um, I think Craig has his reason.

I think they should've, uh, they should've hashed some things out.

An apology is never a bad idea, but, uh, there's something deeper there that I think didn't get explored, you know?

No, like he's on the show.

I, I think it's fun that, you know, like Whitner has, has come on and, and it's very obvious, 'cause he like, he texts me all the time.

He, he texts us, and he's trying to get beers and trying to get drinks, and he's trying to be a part of the group.

And I really...

I wanted to know if you've done any more ayahuasca trips lately.

No, I haven't, but I, this is from that first time I did it, and I, I was so fascinated by it all.

I, when, when I do something for the first time and go somewhere for the first time, I become a child.

I, uh, it's all new, and I...

Wide-eyed wonderment.

So I was journaling because, uh, we were all children, at least the people I was there at the retreat with.

Everybody didn't know what to expect, but they knew it was gonna be maybe life-changing, definitely intense.

[laughs] Where, where do you think the show is going?