Sheila, let's talk about projective identification.

Okay.

This is complicated.

So there's a lot going on with projective identification.

There's a lot going on that is inside the mind, but also between people.

McWilliams talks about it as a, a defense that's characteristic in people with a more borderline level of organization, and particularly it with paranoid personality and dynamics.

One thing that, that, um, projective identification concerns are, um, representations in the mind of the person who's doing the projecting.

So that's why it's so distressing for the provider to be a part of this.