But I do want to, Sean, before we get to the problem-solving skills, what are your techniques or what are, back to Tobin's aha, how do you... instill confidence like is it is it just a matter of practicing the skills and that that's it or is there is there something you've learned over these seven years that like okay this is making a difference to their confidence

It's field exercises, minimize time in class, get them out doing things hands-on.

That's where the conference comes from.

But also it's, we have the instructors, we choose our instructors very carefully and their goal is to always build the student up.

And so there's no shaming.

There's none of the traditional ways of teaching.

It's all, if somebody makes a mistake, You can gently tell them or ask them, how would you do it better next time? Yeah.

Is there... is there a way to tell, let's say you, you are, and I don't know how much classroom work the both of you do, but, uh, is there a way to tell that, uh, that a group has walked away transformed by, by a certain, uh, certain session workshop?