That was my first one.

Yeah, it was warm.

But that's not why it went horrible.

I just did not have the juice.

I was not good enough on that day.

And so I sat down with Ben and I was like, hey, let's both do this exercise where we write a new training block.

If I was going to run Boston in the spring, let's write a 20-week training block to get ready for that.

to a point

Where do you stand on this super shoes and their impact on everything? Because I know you complained about the Boston Marathon this year because nobody blew up enough.

Yeah, not exactly my take there, but I appreciate you distilling it.

So I think...

Yeah, I think that we are kind of in a place where there are very few runners in the professional ranks who have ever trained in any, like ever raced in anything other than a super shoe.

And I think that that is actually like, not to be like an old guy yelling at clouds, but I think like making that change from like the shoes that were not as helpful to the shoes that were, was like, hard for some people mentally because the paces people were running and the aggressiveness with which you could run in a super shoe that was not something I ever grew up in like even like a half marathon like I remember the first half marathon I ever ran I was in college and I ran Houston half in like a pair of streaks so like glorified moccasins and my like i couldn't walk right for like seven days right i ran like 63 59 and like my calves were blown up they were blown up um could not do a workout for two and a half weeks uh i tried like a week and a half after the race and i like could not run 320ks and so i think that there was like a certain mentality you had to have when you were racing in terms of risk management, that calculus doesn't necessarily exist now.

And so I think that this new generation of athletes like the Charles Hicks, like Joe Klecker, like Connor Mance, like Clayton Young, and I'm just saying Americans because they're on top of my head, but They never had to experience that like risk management where it's like if you messed up the pacing, you were boned.

Like you were so boned and it was going to be like a long time in if you even finished it whatsoever.

What's your like elevator pitch course advice to someone running New York city on Sunday?

I would love to get your thoughts on marathon training and specifically the What do you think has changed over the last 10 to 15 years or so in the domain of training? Since you were running marathons, what are folks doing differently now that you're seeing than you might have done 10 or 15 years ago?

Yeah, I think...

So I really had like two chapters in my marathon training.

My first was the NAZ Elite.

And that was really like...

We were doing a lot of stuff at marathon pace and then a lot of stuff at threshold.

And then occasionally we would do some turnover and stuff, but it was really based on steady states, tired legs, hard long runs, just really...

Was it hard to stop training? Did you feel like adrift or were you just kind of thrilled not to be running like 100 miles a week? Yeah.