Is that gonna be an argument that'll fly?

Uh, so it's, it's definitely something that is happening.

There, there is an overcapacity of steel.

The impact of overcapacity of steel is that those that are producing can dump it or may need to dump it in open markets, um, at below cost.

So this is where, um, the International Trade Administration Commission would need to do an evaluation, and they need to see, you know, are these products coming in at a fair price, or are they coming in at below cost, um, and negatively impacting on our industry and causing harm to our industry? Um, so they do need to evaluate that.

Um, but there, there's a whole lot of other things that are happening in the background.

So, um, AMSA, um, is, is a major player in this space, and we, we do know that they're not a company that has invested significantly in their technology.

Are there guidelines on how far you can go?

So one of the claims that seems to be being made here is that the global overcapacity for iron and steel has meant people have been looking for markets to ship their stuff to, to export to, and they've been looking for relatively open markets, and maybe we've been a little more vulnerable here.

Is that going to be an argument that will fly? So it's definitely something that is happening.

There is an overcapacity of steel.

The impact of overcapacity of steel is that those that are producing can dump it or may need to dump it in open markets at below cost.

So this is where the International Trade Administration Commission would need to do an evaluation.

And they need to see, you know, are these products coming in at a fair price or are they coming in at below cost? and negatively impacting on our industry and causing harm to our industry so they do need to evaluate that um but there's a whole lot of other things that are happening in the background so um answer um is is the major player in the space and we we do know that they're not a company that has invested significantly in their technology they have made some over the years, but not sufficient for them to become a competitive player.

They may argue that domestic demand is down, as you said earlier, and that they've lost export markets, and there isn't a case to be made to bring in the latest and most competitive and efficient technologies.

So, under the World Trade Organization process, I mean, if our investigation finds that the industry does need protection, I presume there are limits to the kind of tariff that we can impose? Are there guidelines on how far you can go?

And you can really see the contrast there too, right? In people who just really care about their community and, you know, the specifics of how that's going to look in different communities is going to be different because, you know, communities are unique, right? Versus, you know, these major tech companies who are just coming in and trying to impose this thing, have no connection, have no regard for the local context for what effects are going to be had on local people the local environment any of that kind of stuff it's just like oh we need another one of these boxes to power chat gpt or something like that and you know nothing else really matters and and i wonder you know you mentioned one example there like as you have been doing this as you have been talking to activists you know across the united states Are there particular data centers or campaigns that really stand out to you when you when you think about this, where maybe things have been particularly egregious or there has been like a success that you found really kind of like inspiring or something like that?

Gee, so many.

I mean, one of the ones that I'd like to highlight is the full data center ban that was passed on Seminole land yesterday.

in Oklahoma, the Seminole Nation took up consideration of a bill and it was originally a moratorium and it wasn't a very, what's even the way to frame it, like aggressive or front edge bill in some ways and others it was, but it was basically like, we need a moratorium because we're worried about this.

And I interviewed Councilman Chabon, who's an elder in the community and on the Council of Seminole Nation.

And he basically brought it forward and people were like, why would we do this temporarily? Like, we don't want this.

And then people said, well, yeah, actually no counter argument.

And, you know, are there some that you see as particularly positive, you know, on this issue?

And, and I wonder, you know, you mentioned one example there, like as you have been doing this, as you have been talking to activists, you know, across the United States, are there particular data centers or campaigns that really stand out to you when you, when you think about this, where maybe things have been particularly egregious or there has been like a success that you found really kind of like inspiring or, or something like that?

Geez, so many.

I mean, one of the ones that I'd like to highlight is the, the full data center ban that was passed on Seminole land in, uh, Oklahoma.

Um, the Seminole Nation took up consideration of a bill, and it was originally a moratorium, and it wasn't a very, what's even the way to frame it, like aggressive or, uh, front-edge bill in some ways.

In others it was.

But it was basically like, "We need a moratorium 'cause we're worried about this." And what-- And, and I interviewed, uh, Councilman Chabon, who's an elder in the community and on the, on the council of, of Seminole Nation- And he basically brought it forward, and people were like, "Why would we do this temporarily?" Like, "We don't want this." And then people said, "Well, yeah, actually, no counterargument." And so they changed it to a ban.

And then they said, "Well, it's not just the data centers, but we're worried about the way that artificial general intelligence is stealing language that we've developed over hundreds and hundreds of years, thousands, right? And it's now trying to replace the role of elders in reteaching this language and doing so incorrectly." And so they actually expanded what was a basic moratorium bill that are moving all over the country in all kinds of different places and actually turned it into a ban on data centers and, to some extent, artificial general intelligence infrastructure on Seminole territory.

I, I wonder, you know, what you think of how legislative discussions are moving forward in the United States and, and you know, are there some that you see as particularly positive, uh, you know, on this issue?

But Dr. Sol, I guess, how material then could the impact be on South Africa's export competitiveness then if these tariffs are actually implemented, particularly in already strained global demand conditions?

So it's going to – the tariffs as they have been have impacted on our exports to the U.S.

But in very unusual ways.

So what we have seen actually towards the end of last year, our exports grew because – but that was linked to the price of the raw metals that we were exporting there or the other commodities that we're exporting there.

autos declined, auto exports to the US declined, but they were luckily picked up by some other markets.

So it has been quite a mixed bag where other countries have stepped into some of the vacuum created by the US.

But very interestingly, imports from the US have declined even more.

But what diplomatic and sort of technical leverage does South Africa actually have at this stage to challenge or reshape this proposal before those hearings?

Um, Saul, what, what, what for you, uh, stands out revisiting this clip?

It's, it's a, it was a remarkable conversation and, and one of the things that stood out is, is the way that AI has been jammed down all of our throats and into everything that we use.

I actually also interviewed the tribal councilman, Chabon, a wonderful person, who introduced that resolution on Seminole territory, and he said something that I don't think I'll ever forget.

He said, "You know, Saul, it isn't just about us not wanting these corporate-owned data centers on our territory.

It's actually that we meet on the tribal council to do things to better our community, and this is a waste of time because we're trying to make sure that everyone's housed and everyone's fed.

We're trying to make sure that the kids are taken care of and that they're able to learn.

And it's not just that this is bad, it's like we are not accepting the framing that this is the pressing thing for us to talking about, like data center or not data center." He was like, "This is not a good use of my time.

But what, in terms of, uh, you know, yeah, how people can plug in, what do you all wanna share with us?