And oftentimes when we only take a look at what happens once they get to the shelter, we might forget the fact that oftentimes people are trying to reach out to their community to try to solve the problems that are at hand before going to shelters.

Yeah, and to comment also broadly on this-I think we often hear things like being a responsible owner and it's irresponsible to surrender and, and I think those are such loaded terms and, and they're very stigmatizing.

And one can certainly imagine that if someone is in a situation where, for example, they are needing to rehome for whatever reason, maybe there's a new medical situation in the family that, or a new housing situation, and like Lexis just mentioned, usually multiple, not just one thing at a time.

So it's, it's many things are all coming together to this family.

Us labeling them as irresponsible is not really all that helpful, and it's most likely also going to prevent them from engaging in looking for support, and potentially also maybe even, like, preventing them from engaging in companion animals later on as well.

And so I think we should just be really careful when we judge people.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I think throughout the journey that Lexis has been leading in this research that I've been also, uh, very happy to be part of, at one point I remember we had a meeting and we had the question of, is surrender an actual problem to solve? Is it a problem? I remember, like, I don't know if I'm...