It almost always all starts from the brand and what you think, and then therefore then kind of filters down into how it then is, is delivered through the experience?

Yes.

And in most businesses that aren't FMCG that I've been in, it's about, it's been about discovering what the brand is and then writing it down.

You don't...

You know, Pantene was an exercise, that was my first brand.

Um, you know, it was an exercise in thinking about unmet needs in haircare and then doing a com- you know, literally from scratch, what, what proposition shall we build, you know, to address split ends and all that kind of stuff.

Whereas when in service business, it's been: What is this? What makes us special? Why did we start this business? What...

So what do you make it, what do you make of that? What's, what's the future for agencies?