Just I think you'd solve all your issues.

[laughs] Jethro, I don't know if the question is so much about you finding love, finding a wife.

It's more about you finding someone who meets your requirements, and that's a little bit of a different question.

Um, I, I kinda wanna talk about the 5'10".

Why 5'10"-

It's a preference

... why...

Yeah.

It's a preference

... why...

Yeah.

It is a...

That's the thing is it's a preference.

It's not a non-negotiable.

And I think when we're talking about, you know, what we're looking for, we have preferences, and then we have non-negotiables, and I hear that you're making that preference into a non-negotiable.

Hey, what's up? I'm Tony Gonzalez.

Am I just such a terrible person for feeling this way? And is he a horrible son? I mean, what

is happening, you know?

Look,

attraction is not betrayal.

But the important thing is what we do with that attraction.

And I'm not sure that going to Topgolf is really going to serve you.

I think it's one of those things where people... convince themselves that nothing is happening, but then you're deliberately creating a scenario where something could take place that you might deeply, deeply regret.

I don't know.

Well, Lulu, I think that's probably your biggest question is that you're asking if you married Rafi out of security rather than passion, love, genuine attachment.

And look, attraction is not betrayal.

But the important thing is what we do with that attraction.

And I'm not sure that going to Topgolf is really going to serve you.

I think it's one of those things where people convince themselves that nothing is happening, but then you're deliberately creating a scenario where something could take place that you might deeply, deeply regret.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm wondering if the fact that this is your husband's son, if that's actually part of the attraction because it's forbidden, it's exciting.

What is it then? We're going to have our therapist continue to dig here.

OK, well, what I hear on both stories that you're telling yourself is narrative construction, which means it's an attempt to resolve ambiguity.

We don't really know what happened.

So we have some information and we're going to start filling in that story.

Now, your situation is interesting because it has one scenario, which is quite distressing to you, understandably so.

And then there's this other scenario where it's this lovely surprise.

And you don't want to screw up the lovely surprise by digging in to the other narrative.

Why is it, you know, it's on our credit card.

We're going to have our therapist continue to dig here.

Okay, well, what I hear on both stories that you're telling yourself is narrative construction, which means it's an attempt to resolve ambiguity.

We don't really know what happened.

So we have some information, and we're going to start filling in that story.

Now, your situation is interesting because it has one scenario, which is quite distressing to you, understandably so.

And then there's this other scenario where it's this lovely surprise.

And you don't want to screw up the lovely surprise by digging in to the other narrative.

Take the scenic route.

It's just a, ugh.

I think sometimes it's just a physical response.

Like it doesn't feel like it can feel, I don't know, like crowding.

Have you ever heard the hug thing about Disney and the Disney characters? It's the coolest story.

Supposedly when children, they'll run to like Mickey or Donald and give him a big hug.

That the rule for the characters is you always let the child break the hug.

that is amazing and it just it warmed my heart it was just the sweetest thing because you see the little children like they run and they get so excited so

So I think that it's overall, it really benefits everybody.

It was the happiest I've been in months.

Well, that tells me a lot, if that's the happiest you've been in months.

And I'm curious as to what else is going on in your life.

Like, what is your day-to-day life and work? I hear you are completely fed up, but I'd like to know a little bit about what life looks like right now.

You didn't feel well.

And is a sick day only legitimate if you're physically ill? I also think employers have a responsibility to create a psychologically safe workplace where employees can safely, respectfully communicate what's going on with

Who wants to invite that into your life? Gotta keep it chill.

You know what I did? This was like probably the biggest self-care thing I ever did.

One year, I stayed home completely alone for Thanksgiving.

Oh, my God.

It was amazing.

We were living in Detroit.

Paul came out here to see his kids.

And then after a couple of hours, it was like something I hadn't felt in a long time, you know.

Do

you think audiences have a greater tolerance for a morally gray character than they did, say, 30 years ago when you when you made Titanic? Because Cal was certainly a polarizing character.

But I think that people have revisited him and maybe view him a little differently now.

And...

Do you think he knew her? Um...

Even though, you know, you say go when it's good, but do you ever get couples like that, Sarah, who are there to celebrate each other?

I do get couples.

I get couples who want to maintain the joy And the passion.

And I agree that a lot of couples come in when it's sadly too late.

Or at least one person already has one foot out the door.

When, as a therapist, I can look back and say, God, if you'd only come in three years ago, four years ago, it would have been a way to process some of the stuff that feels unprocessable now.

And I think to go into therapy when things are so great and you want to know how to keep them great... is a wonderful concept.

But it makes me laugh when it's when it's the woman saying it.

You said that in the hallway.

And that is about, we talked about embracing the good, but it very much exists in the non-binary.

And I think it was revolutionary for 1992, what it embraced.

What do you think?

Tell the audience what that book's about, Sarah.

Oh, God.

Ellen, no. It's the story of...

I think it begins in Elizabethan Renaissance.

Is he willing to lose his family over you? He says he is.

Has he taken concrete steps to leave his marriage? And when I say concrete steps, I mean consulting an attorney, telling his wife that he no longer wants to be married, that type of concrete step.

No, listen, you

have no idea how many people are going through this.

I mean, you're not alone in your experience, and I think hearing about your experience is probably really helpful to other people because then they don't feel so isolated in their pain and confusion.

So you're brave.

When a partnership doesn't work out, Sarah, and there's been infidelity, do you sometimes say, thank God, because they were not right for each other? I

never say thank God because of the pain that ensues with an affair often.

But there have been times when I'm glad that somebody is taking the step to exit a relationship that's clearly not working for other people.

Ideally, that's not through an affair.

Ideally, I realize this relationship is no longer viable, so I'm going to take steps to exit.

But sometimes I think there is a sense that two people aren't meant to be together.

Does that make sense?

I feel like I definitely grew more of an attachment to him the longer I was around him, but I just assumed it was because I... was getting to know him more and like, you know, but now, but now I'm,

Hmm.

And that actually surprises me because these types of accommodations that are requested in a relationship usually show up repeatedly.

I mean, do I bring this up to my wife that, like, I'm not really comfortable with that? That-

You bring it up with curiosity, not accusation, not shaming, not guilting.

"I wanna know what's going on.

I'm curious.

I see that you're upset about something." That's the conversation.

Yeah.

So it's this particular person that seems to be the threat.

This isn't an ongoing theme in your marriage.

Normally, I would say to not accommodate, because as I said before, where does it end? But if it's isolated to a particular situation, I don't think accommodation is the worst thing, because flexibility and accommodation are part of any relationship.

You know? Like, uh-

So does your wife.

[laughs] Mm-hmm.

Good point.

Is Francis being love-bombed?

Okay.

I think that love bombed is a little overused, and I don't know that it's used in the way that it technically is indicative of something unhealthy.

I mean, this could just be enthusiasm.

He could be decisive.

It sounds like, you know, he has a wonderful relationship with his ex, and that bodes really, really well.

I am hearing that there's some overwhelm and that usually means that there's like a pacing mismatch.

can't win.

Ah.

And I always like to ask somebody if they feel like they're being integrated into somebody's life, and at the same time, the person is enthusiastic about their life, their friends, their family.

Um, with love bombing, a lot of times you'll see that isolation.

And the thing about love bombing is it's always temporary.

So you don't talk to somebody, and 10 years into a relationship, they're feeling overwhelmed-

I mean, it depends.

Well, I, I think you're saying something different.

You're talking about an attraction.

And now they're, and then, so now I'm sitting here, do I owe them the benefit of the doubt? Or is this the kind of betrayal you never forgive? Because I really don't know what I'm going to do now,

you know? I mean, this is a betrayal trauma.

And I think that the betrayal of your friend is cutting more deeply than the betrayal of your husband.

And I'm going to tell you why.

I think that when we talk about betrayal trauma, it's not it's a lot more than I'm hurt.

This is disappointing.

It's when the reality is very different from what we thought it was.

I don't know how that's going to end.

Do I owe them the benefit of the doubt? Or is this the kind of betrayal you never forgive? Because I really don't know what I'm going to do now, you know?

I mean, this is a betrayal trauma.

And I think that the betrayal of your friend is cutting more deeply than the betrayal of your husband.

And I'm going to tell you why.

I think that when we talk about betrayal trauma, it's a lot more than I'm hurt.

This is disappointing.

It's when the reality is very different from what we thought it was.

I wouldn't cut him off.

I texted him back not even an hour later, and I haven't heard a single thing from him.

Did I text too soon? Okay, Christina, I don't think this has anything to do with your text at all.

If he was going to reach out, I don't think that your text would have precluded a reach out.

You think that he's just preoccupied.

I think that he's either preoccupied, something could be going on, or who knows, his ex could have been waiting in his driveway.

They flew into each other's arms.

It could be the craziest of circumstances.

But I think if he wanted to connect... with Christina again then her text would have been irrelevant I think he has something else going on yeah either it was the kiss wasn't the sweetest kiss to him it was just sort of a you know goodbye this is how I say goodbye oh At the end of the night, it didn't have the same significance.

And it was whenever that person was available, like noontime, midday.

I think sometimes it just depends on what works better for any individual's rhythm.

Like sometimes, like end of day, they get kind of a decompression component of it.

And also, you know, morning, you're... kind of getting maybe some clarity for the day.

Also, if you have a really heavy session in the morning, though, that can take a little bit of a toll.

So it's very, very individual.

For me, it doesn't make a difference.

Wait, so is Richard wrong?

She was like,

who are you? Well, it feels like a betrayal.

Yeah.

I think I said this maybe the last time we got together.

I mean, the concept of a financial infidelity is very real.

I mean, do you feel like this is a financial infidelity? Would you categorize it as such?

I hear that he doesn't know who he is anymore and that he's turning 50 and he's freaking out.

That sounds threatening.

Oh, this is her fiance? I'm so sorry, Sonia, but to Jekyll and Hyde it like that is very scary.

It's unusual.

I know that for some people, if they're insecurely attached, specifically avoidance, their desire really thrives with distance.

So closeness can, believe it or not, dysregulate them.

They don't have a sense of security and safety once they formally attach.

They actually feel dysregulated.

But why, Sarah, would someone who has a fear of closeness seek closeness as the goal?

I think that a lot of times our behavior isn't logical on the outside, where if you're looking internally, it makes a lot of sense.

... is very scary.

It's, it's unusual.

I know that for some people, if they're insecurely inta- attached, specifically avoidance, their desire really thrives with distance.

So closeness can, believe it or not, dysregulate them.

They don't have a sense of security and safety once they, like, formally attach.

They actually feel dysregulated.

Oh

... that could result in somebody withdrawing once they've attained this thing that they've been pursuing.