And that's where people are getting caught out right now.

Living off the refis is like classic Canadian thing, right? We live off our houses in general as a society, right? And that's why the economy is getting crushed right now because all these people that are living off their houses, basically they're living off the refis too, right? Just let it appreciate, refi a bit, and then go back and do it again, right? So that's been a play that most people that were doing that got crushed in the last few years.

Yeah, yeah.

And...

I'm going to give you one example.

Here's an example of what someone could do.

I think I was a little vague in my explanation before.

If somebody wanted to look at an approach like this.

OGs.

Yeah, so we were just getting in.

We started investing in real estate in 2011.

And in those first few years, we were just kind of dabbling.

Bought our first rental property in Oshawa, $267,000, 2011.

Oshawa, nice.

Duplex.

And I think what we're seeing is some people feel a little bit more trapped than they are and some people look let's some people are right some people are just got way too ahead of their skis and they're in a bad position but some people have some equity they have options and they they perhaps don't know it don't really know what to do some people feel frozen right now so maybe you can shed some light and hopefully i'm putting you on the spot here but that's why it's called the hot seat there yeah yeah throwing the tough ones out come on But for those people, what options do they have? How can we sort of support those people that