And as we dive in, of course, to Korach, I wonder really how you understand the story of Korach as being centrally about the idea of division and social fragmentation, and how this theme is so reflected, and I think you want to discuss that work of Doris Salcedo's Shibboleth.

Hi, Simon.

Once again, great to be back as always, and with you, and to be in conversation with you.

Thanks for inviting me on.

Uh, so yeah, where I want to begin really with this is with the Tate Modern's Turbine Hall.

It's not the most cozy of spaces, for those that have been there.

Uh, it has for a number of years, up until 2012, held once a, um, a year the Unilever Series, um, which was large works of art that would be in the s- in the Turbine Hall.

So viewing Shibboleth from the floor versus the above, h- how do these shifts in perspective change our understanding of these events?