But then secondly, just that point of from someone that's investing, delivering, building this infrastructure, does this now feel like a sector that is actually a key economic sector for the UK? And some of the things that Ian was just talking about there about jobs and growth and investment ringing true from you from on the ground?

undoubtedly it is sam but yeah thank you for inviting me on to this podcast i'm sure a lot of people in the ev world are familiar with grid surf but we're one of the busiest charge point operators cpos in the uk predominantly in the motorway service areas we have around 200 locations across the country charging at high power most of the time and i think we charged around 3 million charging sessions last year alone and every year every month is a record month or year as things are clearly increasing so we've both personally and from the business perspective i've been in this world for 23 years um there was two charge points in london when i first started in the ev space just two there's now quite a lot more than that obviously but similarly for grid source perspective we didn't charge anyone anywhere six seven years ago so even from a standing start we've got to an incredible position More widely, yes, as Ian said already, and you both articulated, it's evident that the market is growing in the right direction.

We've got slight headwinds with ZEV mandate uncertainties, et cetera, which to the point you guys made earlier around the future investment, uncertainty doesn't go very well with investments.

It's pretty important that we try and get these things ironed out and understood and structured such that we continue to receive the investment into the industry that it needs over the next few years.

because the other area which also you guys were just talking about which i was i wanted to highlight was that in certain areas getting the right power in the right place is fairly straightforward and the demand is there but i often use the analogy of someone if you wanted to build an extension on your house it's not one cost is it there are multiple variables in the ev space one of those is where we put these chargers you know if they're on the motor service areas or adjacent to a huge power station or power substation then great but if they're not That's a lot more expensive and a lot more complex.

And we're going to need that sort of infrastructure everywhere, not just on the main road networks.

There's still a lot of work to do.

That was

So I have to ask you, like, how did that start and what possesses someone to keep doing this four times?

Yeah.

Okay.

So I have a friend in the industry, a good friend of mine, Kevin Booker, who already had two world records for efficiency driving in petrol cars from many, many years ago.

And we were in the pub together having a chat one day and I was jealous.

I said, I want one.

I want to hang a world record on my wall.

But for everything you've seen, like what actually convinces businesses and people to make that change?

Just talk a little bit about that and the grant and what that has meant and the work you've been doing in the last few years.

Yes, it was my crazy idea that a few years ago I got a message from, from one of the chaps at DfT saying, "There's some funding available potentially for heavy goods vehicle charging and it might suit you." And I thought to myself, "Actually, that, that really does," 'cause we've already got a network that is across the motorway service areas, recognizing this is another need.

That's another area of the transport sector that needs...

And, and a significant one actually even though it's a low amount of mileage on the road.

It's one of the biggest contributors to air pollution.

It is the big stuff, the big trucks.

So I think we were really well-placed to be able to put something forward that, that proposed an opportunity in that particular competition and, and we were successful in it.

Yeah

Mm-hmm.

Um, so vehicle to grid is one thing, but vehicle to X is the sort of phraseology which covers anything from the vehicle, an energy b- back somewhere.

So in my case, it was vehicle to B, vehicle to building.

So those vans were powering the building every night but also charging back up again using smart technology in term, in terms of the timing, so they were ready to go the next morning.

So, so we powered the building off the vans every night and still charged them before the next, next duty cycle in the morning.

Um, you know, and that, that again was, was m- many, many years ago now, but it was working and, and, um, and, and just demonstrates that, that it can be done.

And then on a personal level, I have a Nissan Leaf.

[laughs]