And so how was that a faith experience for you to be writing it?

Absolutely.

So I knew the moment I started even creating an outline after this dream that it was a destiny story.

So if you or any of your listeners have heard of the trolley problem or the trolley question, you know, there's a runaway trolley on the tracks and you have an opportunity to pull the lever.

to divert it.

And you, instead of hitting your best friend, you hit five other people, or instead of hitting the elderly woman, you hit an even more elderly man.

There's all these different combinations, right? Of these decisions that you can make.

And so tell us what you brought and what comes up for you when you sort of consider that question in general.

what's the problem with that interpretation?

When you present this interpretation of habits to psychologists or to neuroscientists, the look on their faces is one of complete shock.

The origins of some of this research, especially the origins of this paper, was in a session of the Choice Symposium that we ran.

at INSEAD in 2023, and we brought in a bunch of psychologists, neuroscientists, economists from a range of different places, experts in this field, in their respective fields.

And we presented this definition of habits to the psychologists and neuroscientists, and they think about habits very differently.

They view habits, or maybe more accurate to describe a system of behavior, a habitual system of behavior, as distinct from a goal-directed behavior.

So they view it as an automated process, a process that's governed by different neural processes in the brain.

But if I'm the stable product, I'm the Campbell's soup, I'm the Heinz ketchup, I may not want that store to move stuff around because that may cause a consideration of an alternate product.

Right? So talk a little bit about that experience, the, the opportunity to teach with Kevin and to teach with Wayne.

Yeah, I think it was fantastic, especially with Kevin.

And the approach that Kevin had, I think, was really cool to watch in the, in the way he explained it too, especially on the, on the part where he was really describing the, how you have to have intent, right? In whatever you do, no matter whether it's golf or not.

And I think just describing it that way was huge and it, and it was really impactful.

And then just watching Wayne, like, I could just absorb everything that he says.

Like, I love listening to him and, and he just describes things in such a perfect manner where it's not overly complicated and that everybody can explain, but it's, it's still a complicated process that he's describing, but he's just so good at explaining it in a simple manner.

And it ... and just kind of understanding, like, how to really communicate with people that way.

So talk a little bit about intent as something that would help somebody, and what do you, what did Kevin mean by that? What did you learn from that that would help a golfer become a more, a better competitive player?

Mm-hmm

... a- again, it can, it can simplify the thought process for the player because they're not gonna be so concerned about where the club is and their arms are.

They're gonna be more concerned of how their body's moving in motion, and then we can measure it just like Michael said.

And if I can say, "Hey, your pelvic slide is four, five inches to the right and it's starting to tip your spine to the left," right? Then they're starting to understand that, and if we can put some lines in there, I think it really starts to show the player what they're, what they're actually doing in motion.

And then if they have that measurable, it's gonna be easier, easier to attack the issue

Webb, what, what say you, heater?

No, I, I agree with Michael.

I mean, I don't think this one needs to be as high tech.

Where are you gonna take this guy or lady trying to break 90?

Yeah.

I like to explain to people when we get close that there's three phases that you probably need to get better in, and that's off the tee, and that's gonna be with the wedges and with the putter.

And meaning off the tee is trying to figure out what's the big miss and eliminating the big miss.

And then the next thing is, like, once we get inside of 100, like, we gotta get this ball at least near the green or on the green, and then just eliminate three-putts and any, any penalty strokes from there.

If we can do those three parts, I think we can break 90 really quickly, and then we're on our way to start to breaking 80.

But those three phases are huge in that spot where you're, where tho- that player's at.

But Webb, gonna dip down to you here in the bottom.