Like, how does someone start to learn the s- the n- the necessary skills to, to, to start to use these products and, you know, for marketing in particular and, and sales, um, without feeling they need to go too deep or, or learn some sort of intrinsic knowledge that maybe they just have no interest in?

The first thing I would say before you go down the endless amount of AI rabbit holes out there is I would first distinguish what are the top tasks that are the biggest bottlenecks in my business, right? So what's costing me the most amount of time, and what's costing me the most amount of money? Once you establish those top three to five things, then that helps determine your answer going from there versus should I use ChatGPT? Should I use Claude, right? That is the wrong framing for all of this, right? But if we wanna take it, you know, a step deeper here of just you're on the paid plan of OpenAI, you're on the paid plan of Claude, I would say the next step is I would really encourage people to try Claude Code or Codex.

And in terms of how to use this, okay, it does require a paid plan in order to use one, each one of these things.

But how I do it is I install what's called an IDE called Visual Studio Code.

This is owned by Microsoft.

Alternatives to this are Cursor, which has just got bought out by SpaceX, and then also Google's Antigravity are kind of those popular IDEs right now.

And the reason why I use an IDE, if you don't know what an IDE is, I think it stands for, like, idle development environment is kind of the acronym.

So when you're thinking about this, you know, like how much time and thought do you put into model selection? Like was it just started with Claude, and that's great, and then I went here? Or are you examining what the expertise is perceived to be from these models and piecing them together in a thoughtful way and, and do you think there's an actual return to that and- You know, and, and, and how deep should you go?

But do you think that that is something that maybe business owners should be looking into? Or do you think that kind of just sticking with cloud code, your basic AI stuff is a safer bet?

Yeah, my take on this, so first of all, I've dabbled in OpenClaw a little bit when it first came out, but in my day-to-day, I don't use OpenClaw, I don't use Hermes, as these are more kind of autonomous agentic solutions versus a Cloud Code or a Codex, where there still requires some manual input for these agents to run.

The first thing I would tell people is that if you haven't touched an AI coding agent like Cloud Code, like Codex, I wouldn't even think about OpenClaw or Hermes, right? People just want to skip and go over the manual version of using AI coding agents.

And they just want this fully autonomous version, do the work while you sleep, because that's what sells on the internet, right? However, with that being said, I do see a ton of potential for this, okay? So one thing that I have on my endless item, endless to-do list task here, is I'm going to eventually use OpenClaw or Hermes or maybe some other solution, better solution that comes out or better harness that comes out in the future, where I'm gonna set up a virtual digital public relations assistant, where I'm gonna feed them my skills, my context and other instructions and everything else.

And I'm gonna basically have them be my PR agent that works 24 seven, where every time I publish a YouTube video, every time I publish a blog post, or I'm on a podcast episode like this one, I want them to be able to scrape, take that context, repackage that into emails with good subject lines, and then scrape the internet for relevant reporters in my niche of marketing and AI and figure out how to send these people pitches where I can eventually get backlinks from other sites to improve my SEO or maybe that leads to other bigger podcast opportunities or speaking engagements, right? Basically having an autonomous PR agent do all of that manually, right? Or do that autonomously is what I was trying to say there.

That's the biggest difference is that we can call on something like a Hermes or an OpenClaw with iMessage, Telegram, something like that versus a Claude Code, right? We're still, yes, there are solutions, I think like Claude Dispatch or there's other ways to do it with your phone, but it's not as autonomous as kind of the OpenClaw and the Hermes are right now.

And so do you think someone who's wanting to get into AI for their business can kind of use one of these local models and then just set up a second brain? Do you think that would be useful? Or would you kind of recommend just go the full route and use an anthropic clod based model or a chat GPT or something like that?

Yeah, so I would back up first and I would say that a second brain, so context is kind of what a second brain would be.

So do you want to talk a little bit about how you ended up getting into AI? What that looked like?

Yeah, so my background is actually in marketing.

So I have a 10 year plus experience in the marketing industry, mostly in SEO, but I also have paid ads experience running million dollar budgets with Google ads and Bing ads, email marketing, content marketing, social media.

So anything that involves marketing, I have over a decade of experience in.

which is very funny now, fast forward to today, I always thought it was a disadvantage to be non-technical because I come from a non-technical background.

But in the age of today in 2026, there's actually no moat in my opinion anymore of building or being super technical versus having a marketing background because anyone can build anything with AI in a matter of seconds.

We can go to a site like Lovable, we can pull up Claude Code or ChatGPT, and we can just say, build me a SaaS tool, build me a website, and make it look like this.

And so do you want to talk a little bit about for to kind of go on the opposite spectrum for a second? If you really think Claude Code is the only thing that people need in their skill stack or if they want to be leveraging all these different types of like apps and stuff like that or kind of what your thoughts on that are?