Yeah.

Because for me, if I'm thinking about capital punishment, there's no way in theory for me to say this is always at every time in every circumstance wrong.

That would be consistent if I were a pacifist.

And I thought there's never any cause for any state action that ends up being violent, but I'm not.

And so I tended to put those two things together.

There is a legitimate role for public justice, and there is something so uniquely heinous about the taking of another human life that it calls for a sort of extreme kind of measure.

But for the past several years, I've held that really uneasily.

table.

What are we actually talking about from a Christian perspective? What are we talking about when we talk about the soul?

Well, I'd like to talk about it first in terms of kind of the most charitable read on down.

So I was having a conversation not long ago with somebody who works in AI and who is really thinking through these questions and saying, look, I'm able to have these conversations with this agent in such a way that what I'm fearful of is that one day we're going to look back on this the way that we look back on human slavery and say, you know, the way there were so many people from Aristotle on who saying, well, there's some people who are born to be enslavers and some people who are born to be slaves, and that's just obvious.

Right.

that one day our descendants are going to look back and say, you really acted cruelly and without foresight.

Now, I don't necessarily agree with where he's going with that, but I think that asking those questions is a good sign for him in terms of his own moral development.

But I think part of the problem or a couple of things that I think are the problem when it comes to people wrestling with, do these things have souls and consciousness? And part of that is, I think it's how poorly we have described the image of God, because often what wants to happen is if you're teaching Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, you're trying to talk about created in the image of God.

We're not Dr. Frankenstein bringing a creature to life.

I'm wondering, how do you discern when and how to speak out publicly on an issue of moral concern?

Well, sometimes if you have something that's just kind of floating around at the extremes, I'm usually not going to speak to that.

It's when I see something that I think is really going to affect real people, real congregations, others in a negative way, and that we've seen do that over history.

So look at, for instance, with Christian nationalism, there were theocrats and that kind of thing, you know, from the very beginning of my ministry, but they weren't really influencing many people in the mainstream of the American church.

And they also weren't representing Christianity to the outside world in any kind of a large way.

So when I started to see this take root, and part of the problem is I've been at this long enough.

I know how things work in evangelical Christianity.

I just wonder, do you think that there is a lesson for Christians today from movements like that, which went forward without trying to cozy up to political power and move their agenda that way, but worked from a different, had a different impetus that drove them in their work?

Theologically, how should Christians think about that very concept?

Well, I mean, in terms of homeland, obviously we're not talking about an ultimate homeland if we're talking about Christians, but there's not a distinction in scripture between being, or there's not a contradiction between being exiles as we are marching to Zion and also caring about the welfare of the place where we live and where we're grounded and rooted.

I mean, that's the entire point Jeremiah 29 through 30 for instance prophet is saying you're in exile you need to care about this place as a place for your own flourishing and for the flourishing of the people around you so when we talk about security I mean you're right the scripture has warnings everywhere about having too much trust whether in one's own national security or even more so in the Old Testament, particularly in the ability of other powers to come in and help you.

But it doesn't rule out national security itself.

As a matter of fact, we have several places in Scripture where a lack of national security and a lack of concern is seen as indolence and laziness and a misbehavior a mis misuse of one's responsibilities so when it comes to just basic uh national security that is i think laid out in the new testament as part of the actual job and responsibility i would argue probably the the main job and responsibility of governments, not in exercising vigilante justice.

And one of the reasons that we we are able not to do that is the fact that we have stable structures that maintain order and justice.

And that's what That's what I think national security is.

Evaluate the potential, Russell, of the local church today to really do something, to really hold even local officials of the local ICE enforcement operation accountable? Where are we on that? Is that even a possibility?

don't

pay taxes to Caesar, he's saying insurrection.

And what he does is so brilliant because he's taking down Caesar in this completely sideways way by throwing the coin back and saying, ah, he's got his picture on it.

It apparently means a lot to him, so give it to him.

Let's render to God the things that are God's.

And so you have this sense of in a world where Caesar was all important, I mean, the same thing you think about where does Jesus choose to bring out that question? Who do you say that I am? It's at Caesarea Philippi named after the family that tried to execute him as a baby.

and the government that would execute him just a bit later.

So a question from David Pavey who asks, how can our perspective of citizenship be an expression of 1 Peter 1.1 and 2.11 in which Christians are considered to be either exiles or sojourners?

Is your new book trying to get people not to overcorrect and go too far on the deconstruction path?

Yeah, because well, with deconstruction is that's a word that really doesn't mean anything because people use it to apply to everything from people who are saying, look, I'm going to take apart all of the faulty things that I've been taught and.

And that I just took for granted.

I'm going to I'm going to go through the process of figuring out what's what's real.

What do I really believe and what have I just sort of inherited without thinking about it? Some people mean that when they mean deconstruction.

Other people mean destruction.

uh I'm going to uh walk away from God uh all together when they say that and almost everything in between so I don't really like to use that word very much instead I would say um having the right kind of disillusionment I think we're at a point right now where One of the really difficult things within the church, or at least within the American evangelical wing of the church, is that sometimes the healthiest people, spiritually and emotionally right now, are the most disillusioned, and some of the unhealthiest people are the most enthusiastic about their place in the church.

uh in our you know last in minutes or so what are some a few examples of that the enneagram has you know has helped you navigate relationships in your family with your co-workers recently what are some some ways that you've found it helpful

How powerful do you think it is that it's going to be? And what do you see as the goal of its leaders or its followers?

Well, there was an old Texas Baptist preacher who used to always say, everybody wants theocracy and everybody wants to be Theo.

And I think that the point of that comment is to say religion is really, really politically useful and has been for every civilization since the dawn of history.

If a leader can say, by disagreeing with me, you're actually disagreeing with God, that gives a great deal of power.

not just over people's bodies, but over their souls.

And so you see this coming up again and again from the pharaohs on down till now.

I don't see America moving to any kind of theocracy, largely because of the persistence of the American constitutional order.

Is America a Christian nation?

What is a healthy way to discuss American history besides the Christian nation versus secular nation binary that both sides seem to be throwing around? So, Russell, how do we understand this intersection between religion and our country?

Well, it's kind of the question of is this a Christian nation is kind of like asking about the public school that I went to.

Is this a Christian school? And if what you mean by that is, do most people there profess to be Christians? Yeah.

If what you mean by that is, has Christianity influenced the way that the school operates and cares about education and so forth? Yeah.

If you mean though, Is this a school that is boundaried by Christianity or that is in some sort of covenant with God? The answer to that is no.

And that's a similar thing to what we have in the country.

You've got a country that's made up mostly at the beginning and to this day.

Like, how should they structure their Sunday service? What songs should they be singing? Like, what's your advice?

And I think that it must be done.

The paperback edition of this book is coming out at a time in which United States of America celebrating 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, 4th of July.

There's a lot of events going on around it.

And you say in this book that American hope is a bastard, which is the first time I've ever said that on the air.

First time the words ever said on the air.

So it seems to be that right now, You have an argument going on between people who would say we had a golden age in the United States.

We need to get back to that.

You can learn more at nosmallendeavor.com or click the link in the show notes and join NSC+.

And, you know, that the careerism or the politics or whatever ends up becoming the more important thing and that the church is just kind of a tool to, you know, to win elections or to make money or to become famous, right? Yeah.

I think about what Robert Putnam said a while back.

I talked to him about this after he had made this comment in I think the New York Times Magazine.

But he was talking about how misunderstood his idea of bowling alone and that the loss of bowling leagues indicates a loss of community and loss of community leads to loneliness.

And he said, people don't understand what the point I'm making.

I am not saying join a bowling league to save democracy.

I am saying join a bowling league because bowling is fun.

In your study of scripture and theology, How does the church kind of escape this cycle where, you know, Christians start to make it about something else, whether it's making money or politics or, you know, tribalism or whatever? How is that cycle broken?

Mm-hmm.

So, you might have somebody who just isn't interested in Israel, uh, in, in those kinds of conversations.

They see it as something kind of outdated, it's sort of a Mike Huckabee era, uh, kind of thing.

Not, not really for them.

It's not that they have a strong position one way or the other, they just don't really think about it.

Then you, you'll have kind of your center-left sorts of evangelicals, kind of social justice oriented evangelicals who tend to be pro-Palestinian, tend to have...

Uh, you know, there are programs such as, uh, Christ at The Checkpoint, uh, that will take people to Palestinian territories, show them, uh, things that have happened, spend a lot of time talking to Palestinian Christians.

Mm-hmm.

Um, you know, that's, that's a question that has rung out in MAGA world and certainly has, uh, with members in the church as well, hasn't it?

Yeah, and at first when I started, uh, hearing about this from people, I thought, "Well, you know, this will be like Access Hollywood." Uh, people initially were a little upset, but then they just kind of put it aside.

Or, uh, January 6th.

All kinds of people who looked at January 6th and thought, "I, I didn't sign up for that." But who then just kind of, uh, moved along.

I thought that will happen with this as well.

Uh, but it's not.

And th- there seems to be something very different here from people who have been saying for years, "We have to get at this, uh, Epstein case." And one of the real tells that I'm seeing is the way that humor, uh, is being used.

Why is this story so important to so many people?

(laughs)

Well, I think the division that we have right now in churches, uh, tends to be between people who want their church politicized and people who do not want their church, uh, politicized, and so you have two very different psychologies at work. So the people who aren't on board with, uh, this kind of thing are also the people who typically want to be unified, they don't want to argue about this stuff at Sunday school or in small groups, uh, as opposed to those who really do want to, uh, politicize. And I think the interesting thing that we've seen is the shift from the appeal to evangelicals in, say, 2016 from now. I mean, Mike Pence, uh, was the vice president because the assumption was, we have to appeal to evangelicals with somebody who supports traditional family values and is pro-life and, and so forth. I think Donald Trump tested that theory, and, uh, found out that his constituency, they, they don't vote for him because he holds certain positions; they adapt to certain positions because he holds them.

Mm-hmm.

And now, you have a lot of people who are figuring out, "If I want to do right wing politics, I can do that without giving up a Sunday morning." And so, there are a lot of people who are saying, "We don't want that. We really do want to follow Christ," but they're not sure how to do it. And one of the things that I get constantly is from Christians who are saying, "Well, give us a word of hope." And my response to that is to say, "Uh, the Bible tells us that hope that is seen is not hope." Instead, suffering leads to endurance, endurance leads to character, and character leads to hope. And so, genuine hope is not reassurance, "Well, this is all going to turn out okay." Instead, it is long-term, yes, things are going to turn out okay. But it may be that what God is doing right now in, uh, the church requires a time being baffled and bewildered, rather than just coming up with another market-driven blueprint which got us into this mess in the first place.