I gather you still loathe that saying?

Well, I think it's been one of the most dangerous commercial quotes that's been repeated over and over again for the last 100 years, Bob.

And the reason why people like saying it is because it gives the CFO an excuse to halve the budget.

And there's a nuance to it, which is there is a magical element to advertising, which is immeasurable.

Other than the sale, of course, the sale is ultimately the measure.

And so I can get really carried away, Bob, and say the research industry was created as a result of that quote, because people are desperately trying to find the 50% that's wasted.

There is a imperceptible, magical, there is a thing there that When it's done properly, how do you measure Old Spice? How do you actually say, okay, which, which part of the 50% of Old Spice was money wasted? But presumably the ultimate tool for measuring success is based on sales increases.

Can you tell us a bit about that?

Mm.

I did Melbourne Times newspaper, which was a joy.

It was Carlton, North Melbourne, Collingwood, um, [lips smack] a, a paper that came out once a week.

Shane Higgs and Glenn Rowan were the owners.

This is a long time ago, Fergus, mid-'80s.

Um, and I sold ad space, wrote the ads.

I'd go to, um, a pub and watch a band, and then I'd write a review of the band.

Pre-Gruen, no one was talking about advertising?

Mm.

I would think of him most evenings, and I think of him in a very sort of, in a very, um, practical way.

So I imagine going into his front gate, and he'd be there cleaning his car with his mate, and then I'd see him there in his garden.

He was a good gardener, and I would help him with his garden.

And then I'd walk through the, the front door of his house, and there he'd be sitting in his sunroom with his book, and I'd be there with him with his book.

And then he'd- I'd walk through into the hallway, turn left into his chair that was beside the window, where he would have olives and a whiskey, and I'm there having olives and a whiskey with him.

And then he'd go to his gramophone, um, because he had 88s? Uh, 86s.

Bye.