Royce, when you were in private equity, what size companies were you investing in? Again, you were in the middle market investing in service companies.

Very different size, Jacob.

The size of companies we were investing in would be sort of a purchase price of $200 to $300 million.

Here, the size of companies are generally $4 to $15 million in value.

But the important thing is the principles of what you want to look for to have safety and an opportunity for value creation, those are the same.

Why 4 to 15 million? My partner, Rick Ruback, likes to say the magic is in the multiples.

And what he means by that, of course, is that when you go to the low end of the size market, You're not getting a lot of institutional competition from PE firms.

Why retirement? Is that intentional or did you just say kind of, oh, most of these people are retiring?

And sometimes you need it.

Well, I certainly agree with that.

And I do agree with your description, Caleb, and I know Rick does, which is it is a tough process.

And there are a couple of things that make it tougher.

First, in most tasks, it's a little like climbing a mountain where every hour you get closer and closer to the summit and you can see that you're getting closer.

But here, you know, Until you get a deal done, you can convince yourself that you've made no progress.

It's not actually true.

So how do people, uh, how should you actually recommend people think about valuation? Because, um, You can always have someone trying to tack on extra multiples using all sorts of arguments.