Right.

There's sort of like a little bit of formlessness, I think, to the episodic structure, which then makes me think of like the slightly more cliched things that are happening are, are what are sticking with me.

So you know, Alex has this big question of like now that she is in this stage of her life, what is the relationship that is gonna take her through death?

Mm-hmm.

And there is a very similar problem for me within that show, which is that there is a teenage son character who also has sort of a situation that occurred at school with another student, and he doesn't know what that means about his identity and who he's gonna be, and his parents are unfailingly supportive.

And it doesn't feel like the show really knows what to say about, like-

very similar experience

um But yeah, like I've loved Steinbeck for a long time.

I mean, I think like this and Grapes of Wrath have very similar sort of ideologies about like individual personhood and grappling with like circumstances out of your control, whether that is your familial legacy and this idea of fate or the reality of like a country that has abandoned you during the Great Depression.

So like...

That sort of element of Steinbeck has always sort of resonated with me before he like inexplicably supported the Vietnam War.

Before he became someone where I was like, oh, Steinbeck, what's up with that? But like this period of his work has always felt very meaningful to me.

And so, yes, I also went into this show with like very high expectations and also sort of thinking like, how is this going to be done? Because the 55 movie is like a sliver of the novel, right? Like the novel is like a multi-generation spanning thing.

Okay.

I

love a land deal storyline.

Yes.

And I think for me, when season one in its back half became more explicitly about a land deal and more explicitly about specifically, like...

American history impact on native lives the question of as an indigenous person you know that this whole country is a land deal so how do you live with that I think the nuance of those questions and sort of like how irreconcilable or reconcilable god it's Friday my brain is turning off but just how impossible they are to answer I really liked when the I felt like there was a little bit too much deviation and detour and sort of like fainting at answers to the central mystery.

A little bit too much Tim Blake Nelson for me.

A little bit too much of like...

over

All right.

I don't know why.

Maybe because I miss And Just Like That, or maybe because last time I was in New York, I was like walking by a group of girls and they were talking about how they were beginning to watch Girls.

And so there's something maybe just like a little bit nostalgic, I think, that I feel toward this show.

And I also think when I think about it, like personally, I have a lot of frustrations with Lena Dunham, but I do think that there was something like incredibly singular about what was happening in that show, and her being in her early 20s when she was doing it.

And I think now, like some time removed from that, I just have a lot of respect for what was being done and the type of television that was being made.

I also think if it is terrible, then we still get to talk about it.

This was his Hamlet

Yep.

And to go back to Emily's point about, like, vampires being, like, creepy rich old people who are just trying to, like, fuck you and consume you- There was that element within these two movies, which I think we have lo- Like, Twilight has, what are they, The Volturi or whatever?

[laughs]

I have no qualms.

I think it's incredible.

It genuinely is, like, one of my top three Guillermos.

I think exactly because of what you said, Phil.

I think there's, like, a lightness and a looseness to this that we, like, increasingly lose as he sort of becomes more like, let me consider the state of the man and the monster and, like, I'm sort of...

Mm-hmm.

We talk a lot about like the specificity.

You get something really specific, it becomes universal.

Like, I think coming from a family that is Muslim, there's so many things that I recognized and I related to, but I also think the way that this script is constructed and the overall flow of the film, it really invites in a lot of different interpretations and a lot of different things to latch onto.

Mm-hmm.

We actually have, like, to a certain degree, the same amount of faith.

We view our roles as protectors of the faith in the same way.

And if there wasn't this, like, question of Haddi, and Haddi is, like, a...

Mm.

So I think there is sort of like this broadness to it, Steven, because I think it is sprawling and trying to tell this, like, decades-long context for this issue.

But the way that the production design looks, the way that it's shot, the focus on these actors' faces, in a lot of ways it made me think of, like, a bizarro Wes Anderson movie.

Mm.

I'm really okay with, like, a nightmarish version of a Wes Anderson.

So I- I just think for as much as sometimes my attention deviated a little bit when there are these rooms of, yes, white men yelling at each other and just, like, amping each other up, then it would sort of move to a composition or a staging that was not what I anticipated or expected, and it pulled me back in.

... for a piece of information that we don't get? Regardless, what did you guys think about the, this, this ensemble, this, uh, like little group of three very sympathetic, uh, convicts and a weasel?

Long, long sigh.

Yeah, I think they're almost too easy to sympathize with.

I mean, I, I feel very ...

I feel very divided about this.

Because on the one hand I keep thinking like, yes, this is a movie m- made about the 1930s, but I think really you can do a reading where it is about the era that we are currently in and living in a time of like ICE raids and protest arrests and people being basically just like railroaded for things that they did not do because we live in a state that is allowed to do that.

So if I'm, if I'm thinking about it as really like a commentary on like the 2020 Trump era too, and then I'm like, it's totally fine that they're incredibly sympathetic, [laughs] because we've seen enough of that, like, in the news and in real life that I can buy that.

[laughs]

uh sam bowen bowden yeah sam bowden yeah he's kind of a bill clinton now that i think about it of course this is before all of that stuff came out um but anyway yeah i don't know so who who might be the evil man the film i

mean i sort of think sam bowden is marty because like the key the key change here okay so some some cape fear backstory yes so In the book, The Executioners, there is a lawyer, Sam Bowden, who during World War II, I believe they are stationed in Australia, I think, maybe New Zealand.

He literally comes across like at night saying, a soldier raping a 14-year-old girl.

And if I'm remembering correctly, she is indigenous.

So she looks older than she is.

I'm doing air quotes.

And Sam Bowden turns in this man, Max Cady.

But, yeah, I think it's just, I think it's an amazing film.

and we're back this is something that i brought up in my keynote as well and i think it's it's it's a you know something that you know i brought it up in connection to francis for coppola which who is somebody that freaking saw himself in conflict with or in competition with or somebody who he you know uh on his level or something and there's such a strong connection between sorcerer and apocalypse now which is how effective they are as physical productions How does the film sort of strike you in that way as a film in which its creation, its making really seems to have a bearing on the effect that it has on you as an audience?

I mean, I do think at a certain point I turned to my partner and I was like, I bet they all stink.

There is a level of just everything is wet.

You know, the jungle is humid as hell.

Like there is so much focus on the physical torment and trial of trying to like hack through this location.

And I think that, again, is maybe a little bit of why This one just hits me like a little bit more than Wages of Fears because I think there is like a real emphasis on how this jungle is almost sentient and does not care about them at all.

And there is like an additional layer of challenge to that.

What are your thoughts on that?

I'm with you so far

... good.

All of his zany antics on the farm.

And there have been a couple movies, and this is the latest one, and it is Halloween-themed.

The general premise is that Shaun and, you know, his sheep family are looking forward to doing a big Halloween celebration, but then their farmer accidentally destroys their pumpkin patch.

So Shaun goes mad scientist to, like, grow one pumpkin seed back into a pumpkin so Timmy can make a jack-o'-lantern.

And of course, things spiral out of control [laughs]

[laughs]

I was so close.

Yeah.

It's gonna be Thelma & Louise, which I re-watched last month for another pod, and I was just...

Look, like, we're talking about how, like, the sci-fi Ridley stuff felt very prescient, and obviously, like, set major trends.

What was astonishing to me watching Thelma & Louise is just how much it feels like none of the America depicted in that movie has changed.

[laughs] The misogyny is still the same.

Um, sort of these questions of, like, when is a woman telling the truth? What does a woman wanna do with her life? Leaning in.

Hmm

Yeah.

So, like, for people who haven't read Heat 2, it is simultaneously a prequel and a sequel.

So as Sean said, there is this prequel element in Chicago where we learn that, like, Neil and Vince had a connection through- ... serial killer, and then there is, like, a sequel part of it, which is, like, Chris getting involved with, like, a Chinese family who is, like, arms dealing because, like, of course they are.

the inciting incident of that, was that conversation.

Yes, this was the inciting incident of that, yes.

But I do think the thing that I, I at least I do wanna say, like, I'm glad for...

Look, I don't, I don't enjoy Obsession.

I didn't think that it was doing what it set out to do.

Mm-hmm

...

Because we don't wanna spoil anything for listeners.

I think that the third episode is the best episode by far of the season.

I think it is the one that is actually saying something that you are alluding to, Glenn, which is this question of, like, being non-white in a white country, which is what America essentially, you know, claims it is at this current moment in time.

[laughs] So I think that there is that element, and that's really interestingly handled in three.

I think there are thoughtful things being done here in terms of what is good, quote-unquote, representation and what would be the realities of being someone in this country trying to measure up to, like, a white ideal, how infuriating is that? I think that's in three.

[laughs]

What does anybody could cook mean to you and the film Ratatouille?

I think it's interesting that it's anybody can cook because Remy is good at cooking because he has this, like, exceptional palate [laughs].

So, like, yes, anybody can cook, and, and so I think that it is, on the one hand, this, like, very inclusive, beautiful message.

I'm singling out Remy here, too, but, like, I think maybe my favorite scene, actually, in the movie is the revealed backstories of everybody who works in the restaurant, that they're all coming from these disparate walks of life.

And not all of them are necessarily, like, classically trained, but they come together each night to work the line and put out food that people are really excited about eating.

So I do think that there is, like, a beautiful sort of communal equalizing thing happening in the kitchen.

But I like that you brought up The Incredibles because I do think there is a shared [laughs] like anybody can do this mentality to these movies, but that's not actually true.

Uh, yeah, so, so what is it, uh, that stands out to you about this period and, and how this movie, you know, sort of fits into it?

Yeah.

Right? The thing is, men commit violence against women, and what is another man going to do about that? And so it's interesting that the progression has been from the book, when he, like, interrupts this rape, helps Max Cady get sent to prison, and then, yes, is, like, targeted by Max after his return.

To have that, like, evolve into Nick Nolte's character and Marty's also being, like, a horn dog, like, yes, he is [laughs] like, he is willing to send Max to prison and he, like, breaks his legal vow by doing that, but he's also, like, a scumbag, and he also, like, doesn't treat women well.

And so it becomes this interesting conversation of, like, does Sam hate Max or fear Max because he thinks Max is, like, an evolved Pokemon version of him, right? Like, what is the, what is the level of, like, violence-

Oh, yeah

... yeah, this is during his interview.

It's, like, during his, like, first TV interview, is that his father was stationed in, like, Basque Country, and he, like, impregnated his mom, and then he dipped.

And his mom had mental problems because this show hates women, and so she kills herself, and he gets sent to the US to live with the dad who didn't want him, and then, like, raised him in Cape Fear in the dog cage with Juliette Lewis as his half-sister who hated him and then was fucking him.

Mm-hmm.

But then we don't have any sort of, like, glimpse into how she continues to feel about that or continues to process that, and it's just a very weird loose end in this film where, like, Neve Campbell's character is like, "Fuck yeah, I'm hot," and Nancy is like, "Fuck yeah, I'm powerful," but there is nothing furthering the Rochelle characterization.

And so for that I do go back to, like, what Rachel True has said about making this movie and, like, how frustrating and limiting it was because it feels like there should be another act there [laughs] for that character-

Valid.

And then Nicholas has sex, I guess, with her bro- stepbrother, and reveals that he is bi.

And then she still puts a love spell on him because she's like, "No, I like him." [laughs] So she puts a love spell on him, and then apparently the next day the teacher tells them that he died by suicide the night before.

She tells her friends about the love spell, and then they reject her for casting-

I really enjoyed watching this and in some ways kind of soured me toward the other two adaptations because I enjoyed this so much.

Wow.

Okay.

Well, I think that is a, you know, again, I'm like, how could Rudy think that? Because we have to talk about the 91 version, which is directed by Marty Scorsese and written by Wesley Strick.

And I think this is the one that maybe looms largest over film Twitter, just because Robert De Niro as Max Cady is so bizarre.

Yes.

It is a true...

Like there is, it's literalized with this drug that the son is constantly given that makes him lose personhood.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I also think there are moments, and again, not that this is necessarily new, but that I at least liked seeing here where kind of what Linda was talking about, where the fact that Nora is sort of, she's a Black woman, she's an alcoholic, she has all these things, and it's always just like simmering beneath the surface of her interactions.

There's also just moments where you see the Emmy Rossum character, Alice, in a room with like mostly white men, and they're talking about victims as if like, they'll use the terms that are not sensitive, right?

Right.

Like at one point one of them is like, "How do we know that this person isn't just like trying to get money? They're a prostitute.

Like, how do we know that they weren't just trying to get money?" And then, you know, Alice is like, "Well, no money has been withdrawn from the people who have been killed, so I don't think that's the issue." And like Alice knows all of these things that these men don't understand.

And have we seen that before? Sure.

Uh, one specific aspect of it, which we'll get to, but, uh, what was your overall impression?

I also am generally pro.

I mean, I think the thing about the first season which worked so well for me is that it is just a restaurant.

It is a claustrophobic restaurant with a lot of people who have decided that they don't care about anything because that's the only way to get by in this world, coming together to, like, make sandwiches.

It's fine.

It's very small scale.

I think it is as ideologically satisfying about the nature of work as, like, any of our other great workplace-

Mm-hmm.

[laughs]

... over the course of the rest of her career.

But um, I remember just thinking like in that movie of so much, and this was her purpose, right? Like, this was the point.

But in this movie of like so much ... dour, awful, muddy, terrible things.

It was like, "Oh, you're the one normal person in this, like, milieu." And I sensed, like, a deep melancholy from this actress, which I think really worked for what that film was supposed to be.

And then I think eventually when I re-watched Hook with the understanding of Gwyneth-

Yeah

...

Mm-hmm

... which I think is really interesting, and I think you get that in this film.

And then of course, like, as he loses his hearing, it changes, I think, how he, of course, relates to that sense, but also I think relates to, like, the entirety of his physical frame.

And I think that comes through in this movie as he is learning sign language, as he is learning, like, oh, the reverberations I can feel throughout my body rather than just feel or hear.

So I think there's just a lot, like, on the level of what is he doing with not just his face, 'cause he's a great face and eye actor, as we've talked about.

Yeah.

I mean, it is the role.

I think Riz is one of the few people I've seen recently who has really done something different.

Here we go, Jeff.

And then Matt said, "I discovered Filmspotting only recently, drawn back into film criticism by The New York Times' poll on best films of the 21st century and Filmspotting's similar episode.

What has kept me listening are a few things.

First, the depth of analysis, which routinely pushes past simple points to get to more complex interpretations.

Second, the great conversations between Adam and Josh, who build on each other's points so well.

And third, the frequent mentions of personal viewing gaps and homework, which remind listeners that we're all still learning, that there are still great films out there for all of us to see.

I love that open acknowledgement of blind spots, which is really an invitation for us all to keep on watching." That's so nice.

Mm-hmm

Yes.

And I do think a lot of Heat mimicries either just hit sort of the same beats without the soulfulness of the original, or they stay, like, so outside of it that it doesn't actually feel like Heat.

It becomes this other thing, right?

Soap, yes, yes

... which is really propulsive, very fun.

The characters, especially the female characters, are some of the best that I've seen in this genre on television in a long time.

We didn't talk about the character of Charlie yet-

No, I think it's just kind of endearing, pretty damn accurate.

And there's a mystery about her that has sort of hung over the entire season, and I'm not sure that is working either, this question of, like, a season-long mystery.

I don't think it's doing the character much justice, although Sepideh Moafi's performance is so good.

I'm sort of like, I wanna know more about her rather than knowing more and more and more about Robbie's self-destructive tendencies.

So I just think the show is, like, slightly out of balance at this point in season 2.

[laughs]

And I, I do think that they've done that really well in season two, and I think so many of those sort of like mentor/mentee relationships with people like Langdon and Mohan have that sort of like workplace training the person who might one day replace you and struggling with the responsibility of that.

I think all of that has been done really well this season.