No

... because it's hardly talked about it.

So it's... all this is doable, and the, the onus is really on us.

I think the... you know, coming back to the point, are people incentivized and are governments incentivized to take the hard decisions? We're talking about significant changes here, and this is where a lot of the political debate really is here.

Now, y- I, I don't wanna get party political, but that's, in my view, that's one of the reasons why we've had this extraordinary rise of One Nation really fast because I've spent quite a bit of time in the last six months traveling in regional Australia and, and out of suburban-

Mm

...

I'm, I'm just...

No

... because it's hardly talked about it.

So it's, all this is doable, and the, the onus is really on us.

I think the...

You know, coming back to the point, are people incentivized and are governments incentivized to take the hard decisions? We're talking about significant changes here, and this is where a lot of the political debate really is here.

Now, you...

I, I don't want to get party political, but that's, I mean, in my view, that's one of the reasons why we've had this extraordinary rise of One Nation really fast because I've spent quite a bit of time in the last six months traveling in regional Australia and, and outer suburban-

Mm

Both

countries have de-industrialised in the last 30 years in a dramatic way, frankly.

And that's been self-inflicted largely.

And that sort of coincided with a more aggressive Russia for the UK in the last... 20 years or so.

And, you know, Vladimir Putin has really pushed the envelope, putting it mildly, in what he's done in Ukraine and he threatens to do elsewhere.

But the bigger issue, I think, for both of our countries, the UK and Australia, is what's been going on in Beijing and what the Chinese are doing.

Because they have... distorted global trade, global economics, and so on.

Yeah.

How closely do you think would the US be watching Anthony Albanese's extended trip to China, particularly at a time when, of course, it's seeking clarification on our position on Taiwan and wants us to lift defence spending?

Well, yes, I'm sure the Americans are looking very closely at everything that the Prime Minister is saying and other members of Cabinet and, for that matter, other Australians and some of the debates that are taking place here.

They're very concerned.

I think they're very concerned on two or three key fronts.

Firstly, they're really worried about the level of defence expenditure.

They've been fairly direct, even publicly, about their perception that we need to lift our game.

And I think they're not trying to exclude themselves from this.

Do you think that Malcolm Turnbull's interventions are helpful right now?